Stopping a german tank with a Garand

[bob4wd]

Was talking to a WWII vet yesterday, still very sharp BTW, and got to talking about my rifles collection. He mentioned that it was well-known at the time that a good shot, if he was super cool, could place a bullet between the turret and the hull of a German tank and it would go inside, ricocheting all over the place. He didn't recall just what model of tank this would have been (i imagine they would have all looked alike to a scared infantryman at the time!), but seemed to be pretty confident that this was true.
So I allowed as how that was very interesting and the conversation went on to other interesting things. The whole time, though, I was thinking that this fell into the same ejected Garand clip "ping" category- everybody knew somebody else that swore it was real, but nobody ever actuallyhad it happen to them. I can't imagine any tank designer allowing such an obvious defect to exist, but still.....
So could such a thing be possible? What say you?

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[Badger]

... not sure what else to add!!!!

Regards,
Doug

[browningautorifle]

So could such a thing be possible? What say you?

No, not even remotely possible. Anyone suggesting such a thing has never had their head inside a tank.

[Flying10uk]

There were some WW2 German tanks that were very difficult to put out action with allied A.P. rounds because of the thick armour. Some success could be achieved by hitting the lower part of the main gun barrel trunnion causing the shell to be deflected downwards through the roof of the tank where the armour was thinner. One or two of the German tanks in the Tank museum at Bovington still have the scars to show where this was attempted. It was a difficult shot to get a successful hit but not impossible and does show that there were weaknesses in design.

I would say the theory outlined in Post 1 is perfectly possible because German tanks did have weaknesses, as I have just described, as did allied tanks. Also there are supposedly a number of unfortunate cases involving early "bullet proof" limousines in which 1 or more of the occupant has been killed by an assassin firing through/round the edges of the doors. This has supposedly been rectified by a design change in more modern designs of armoured limousine so that a bullet can't get a direct path into the vehicle through the door edge gap.

[browningautorifle]

It was a difficult shot to get a successful hit but not impossible and does show that there were weaknesses in design.

I say again, put your head inside a tank. A rifle won't penetrate at the turret ring. An AP anti tank shell is different. They aren't weak.

I would say the theory outlined in Post 1 is perfectly possible because German tanks did have weaknesses

You're talking about a vehicle you know nothing about...

[Flying10uk]

You're talking about a vehicle you know nothing about...

I've told you before Jim don't be so quick to criticise others, you don't know everything.

I speak as an experienced engineer and you will make yourself look silly if someone comes along with evidence proving what is suggested in Post 1 is entirely possible.

[mrclark303]

I last saw the the excellent Bovington collection about 9 years back.
The King Tiger inparticular is both hugely impressive and absolutely terrifying in equal measure!

Seeing, hearing and feeling these things thundering towards you on the battlefield would strike the fear of god into any sane person.

Any infantryman would, I am sure, keep his head firmly down and not take pot shots with his rifle, to do so would invite the full fury of the armour and the supporting Pazner grenadears...

[browningautorifle]

I speak as an experienced engineer

That's what I mean exactly. Go take a look and think about what you're suggesting. Badger used to live in a tank and he just laughed...(post 2)...

don't be so quick to criticise others, you don't know everything

I assure you, I have a good handle on armor and the inside of a tank. I was advance driver and maint instructor...you don't know anything about me.

[matthanne1]

Perhaps one may have better chance at the vision block, not the turret race ring. These are built to absorb and distribute the weight at angle as well as residual recoil from firing. Think the recoil assembly handles it all? This is why the chassis also jumps when firing. Most race rings are, first and foremost, channels in the hull roof and turret base in which those proverbial steel 1" or so ball bearings roll. Interior wall plates protect from debris and allow water runoff. An inner ring is toothed to facilitate the turret traverse drive. No clear path. A round will expend energy bouncing until it reaches the ball bearing race, in which it will likely be ground up.

Instead, the slit slots (not periscopes, but in particular the driver vision and machinegunner aiming ports and especially the nearly vertical turret walls) which did not have glass behind them are much more appealing, and while causing a brew-up is unlikely, there is a chance that eyes are behind that slot which WILL cause a reaction.

[CINDERS]

Couple of things here and I will rabbit a bit here,
As far as knocking out a tank with a rifle by getting it between the hull & turret ring wont happen as the turret sits in ball bearings so there is no gap per say that leads directly into the turret as there is a skirt behind the ball bearing race which is part of the turret so the turret basket can be attached.
A good shot and I mean a good shot may have a go at the drivers vision blocks but the commanders cupola has a fair few of them he can guide the tank if needed or worst case scenario rotate the turret and if the bow gunner cannot get to you the main gun may spoil your day. Besides it would take guts to crack at a tank with a 30/06 be like trying to kill an elephant with a slingshot good chance you'll hit him on the trunk and just get stomped to death for your effort.
I have seen live footage of the war in Syria of a lunatic fighter stuff a grenade down a soviet tanks main gun and disable the tank & crew I am not sure of the truth but it is there to see.

When Tiger 131 was captured in Africa it was a fluke shot that jammed the turret ring that and the crew being of a nervous disposition and leaving a complete and functioning Tiger for the allies to take and evaluate I wonder what they said when they got back my guess is they were probably shot for cowardice.
Everything has to be lined up just so to try and land a shell exclusively in the turret ring would be difficult to a degree especially if it were on the move, if you were in a TD you have the opportunity to move after you have fired creating an elusive target also being able if possible utilizing structures or ground to conceal & protect yourself, as all the dust & smoke is going to show where you fired from getting a response from maybe a bigger tank.

A towed A/T gun well you would need a few of them to keep the tank suppressed you cannot do anything about the dust and crud signaling your position so your shot must be good to disable it to a point where it is not a threat but I know for a fact in Russia one Tiger (Pictures of the period of that tank) took over 200 hits from A/T rounds and still crawled 20 klms back to its rear, a tanks weakness even todays ones are the tracks knock them off to give yourself a fighting chance it may be still able to pivot turn on one track to help speed up the turret getting on to target but its not going anywhere.

Thing is the Germans did not send just one tank usually there was a good smattering of infantry with different types maybe scout tanks IV's V's with the Heavies like the VI's, Ferdinands (They were defunct after Kursk really) Panthers or Jagdtigers (From a fixed concealed positions shoot & scoot perhaps).

Sadly a great story and full respect for the vet concerned and for all of those that went away but in reality it would probably mean the demise of the man firing the rifle if not by the tank then surely from the supporting infantry.

One other post sript as I am a rabbit is if the A/P round does not penetrate the hull or turret it may impart such a force that inside the turret/hull the armour crazes and cracks sending secondary fragments around the hull interior disabling/killing the crew. Whilst not a biscuit the fragments would be given enough impetus from the hit to do the deed to the soft stuff inside the tin can.
"The Biscuit" is a term given to the shard/chunk of metal/armour plate that is broken off and moves ahead of the A/P round prior to the entry of the said round this was explained in a video I watched on battleships and how a 15" shell penetrates the armour sides/turret of wherever, what happens is on the inside is a great chunk of steel breaks free ahead of the projectile and becomes a secondary missile killing and maiming before the shell enters and detonates.
The force a 1 ton 15" shell can excerpt or striking energy was calculated at 80,000/foot tons sort of like the Yamato landing on you I have it in my books some where as it goes through all the different calibers and their striking energy & MV's.