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  1. #1
    Legacy Member Chubbs's Avatar
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    Barrel to far gone or worth saving.

    I bought this No4 mk1* nearly 10 years ago. I have to admit it was a rush purchase and I didn't inspect it too much. I have only shot it with PPU 174gr ammo. It is a bit hit and miss grouping wise. Not sure if it's me or the rifle. At 50m's it can put 3 rounds together and then throw the next 2 1-2 inches away from the group. It seems as the barrel warms up so the grouping opens up. Everything is tight and up lift tension is OK.
    The rifling with the naked eye looks good. However when viewed with a borescope it's pitted.
    A 0.305" pin gauge will fit 1.129" down the muzzle and after that a 0.304 will pass all the way down the barrel.
    The muzzle end of the barrel has a nasty pit in the rifling which goes down into the barrel by 0.180". The question is can this be cut down and re crowned. Does the pitting look to far gone?Or is it not worth bothering with.

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #2
    Legacy Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
    I bought this No4 mk1* nearly 10 years ago. I have to admit it was a rush purchase and I didn't inspect it too much. I have only shot it with PPU 174gr ammo. It is a bit hit and miss grouping wise. Not sure if it's me or the rifle. At 50m's it can put 3 rounds together and then throw the next 2 1-2 inches away from the group. It seems as the barrel warms up so the grouping opens up. Everything is tight and up lift tension is OK.
    The rifling with the naked eye looks good. However when viewed with a borescope it's pitted.
    A 0.305" pin gauge will fit 1.129" down the muzzle and after that a 0.304 will pass all the way down the barrel.
    The muzzle end of the barrel has a nasty pit in the rifling which goes down into the barrel by 0.180". The question is can this be cut down and re crowned. Does the pitting look to far gone?Or is it not worth bothering with.
    Attachment 136771Attachment 136772Attachment 136773Attachment 136774

    What condition is the breech end of the barrel - that's the important bit for rifles that have fired cordite :

    Reference to NC is 'Nitro Cellulose' (it is not referring to Non-Corrosive)



    Use of Cordite in Rifles

    'Regulations For Army Ordnance Services', Vol.3, Pam.11A (1949) comments:-

    APPENDIX 15

    USE OF .303-IN CORDITE AND N.C. AMMUNITION

    1. The action of Cordite propellant in the barrel of a .303-in. weapon is quite different from that of N.C. propellant.
    Cordite gives a rapid build-up of pressure with great heat, leading to pitting and erosion of the chamber end of the barrel.
    N.C., however, gives a more gradual build-up of pressure with less heat, and this in turn gives uniformity of barrel wear from chamber to muzzle, the amount of pitting and erosion being greatly reduced.

    2. With Cordite propellant, set-up of the bullet is most pronounced and even when the chamber end of the barrel is well worn, the muzzle end still has sufficient rifling left to impart the necessary spin. As the wear advances up the barrel, so the accuracy of the weapon is progressively reduced.
    With an N.C. propellant, set-up of the bullet is slow and by no means so pronounced, due to the more gradual building up of pressure. The barrel retains its original accuracy until wear reaches a critical stage, when a sudden falling off in accuracy occurs.

    3. It can be seen by comparison with the effects of barrel wear that to use N.C. ammunition in a barrel which has fired Cordite will give serious inaccuracy in flight, whereas the use of Cordite ammunition in a barrel which has fired N.C. gives good accuracy, but serious changed the wear pattern of the barrel.
    In the first case, i.e. a weapon which has fired Cordite ammunition the barrel will be eroded and fissured in the first few inches up from the chamber, the part in which obturation should occur. The poor set-up of the bullet, in the N.C. cartridge is not sufficient to give good gas sealing in such a barrel and the bullet does not, therefore, receive the maximum impulse. The resultant loss in velocity and instability due to lack of spin lead to a high degree of inaccuracy.
    In the second case, Cordite ammunition fired from a barrel which shows uniformity of wear from firing N.C. ammunition, has an adequate reserve of set-up that ensures full gas sealing, with satisfactory velocity and spin. Unless the barrel wear is in a advanced stage due to firing a large number of N.C. rounds, there will be no immediate appreciable loss in accuracy. Furthermore, the decline in accuracy for Cordite ammunition will follow the normal gradual fall-off experience in weapons firing Cordite alone, as the wear at C of R progresses.

    4. Trials have proved that even if only a few rounds of Cordite ammunition are fired from an "N.C." barrel, the ensuing accuracy life when N.C. is subsequently fired is reduced considerably. The occasional and restricted use of N.C. in a "Cordite" barrel will however, have little effect on its ensuing accuracy life for Cordite, although naturally the fire of N.C. will not be very accurate.

    5. The effect of wear of barrels can be determined by firing shots through a paper screen at 100 yards. If, on examination of the screen, all shot holes are not perfectly round, then the barrel is no longer fit for use.
    The danger lies in the fact that bullets fired erratically from badly worn barrels may overcome their instability in flight and take up a steady flight in the direction in which they happen to be pointing, with short-ranging and disastrous results if used for overhead fire. Except under these conditions of long-range firing there is no risk involved, though in normal range firing inaccurate fire will result.

    6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-

    (a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.

    (i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
    (ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
    (iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
    (iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.

    (b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.

    Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.

    (c) Light M.G.s.

    Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.

    (d) Rifles.

    N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
    above, if necessity should arise.

    7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stenciling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.

    8. It must be noted that the above restrictions apply only to ammunition fired from Britishicon weapons. All American ammunition is N.C. loaded and their weapons are designed to fire it satisfactorily.
    Last edited by Alan de Enfield; 07-17-2024 at 01:00 PM.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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  6. #3
    Legacy Member Chubbs's Avatar
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    Hi Alan
    If I drop a factory ppu into the breach it will fully seat the case rim on the barrel. If I use a fired case and a loose bullet the case will sit about 1/4" high. Not sure if the ppu 174gr bullet has a slimmer profile than M k 7 as I don't have one to compare.

  7. #4
    Legacy Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    It is the Leade and the 1st 2" of the barrel you need to get and look at - use a camera or a viewing mirror.

    The bullet fitting shows nothing - an eroded barrel will be a bigger diameter so the bullet fitting doesn't help.

    Viewing mirror :





    20200624-172649
    Last edited by Alan de Enfield; 07-17-2024 at 02:29 PM.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

  8. #5
    Advisory Panel Brian Dick's Avatar
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    Get some gauges.

    .301 must run
    .307 plug must not enter the muzzle more that .25"
    .310 plug must not enter the breech more than .25"

    Have you checked the forend for fit? That may be your problem. Follow the instructions on Peter Laidlericon's article in his index on this site.

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    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Pictures can be misleading. Even the slightest surface etching in a perfect bore will look like severe pitting if (a) there is carbon or (b) the light angle casts a shadow. Most cameras with an angled mirror have the light going parallel to the bore, causing a shadow in even the lightest of imperfections. A Birdseye picture always looks worse for this same reason. Pictures 2 and 3 look absolutely fine to me. The imperfections in 1,4 could be a glob of oil or grease, or the absence of oil in that one spot. Serious damage will look like fading edges in the rifling that remain even after complete cleaning (such as with jb bore paste), and/or large pits that cross the edge of the rifling.

    As others have said, the most important thing to examine is throat and muzzle for severe erosion. The latter can be done with a bullet, the former can also be done with a bullet, provided you can measure distance with an OAL gauge, like these https://www.hornady.com/modified-cases#!/
    you can use a bullet if you have two chambers to compare. You can also use a pin gauge of the right size (5 or 6 bucks on amazon) and reference Brian's data above.

    I did a thread comparing 3 different No. 4 chambers, one of which was new-in-the-wrap. The thread is here
    https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=73582
    The pictures didn't survive the great milsurps reset, but the measurements are there.
    I still have the "new" rifle, and have only put 20-30 rounds through it (handholds, no cordite), as well as the Longbranch, but not the other.

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    Legacy Member Chubbs's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield View Post
    It is the Leade and the 1st 2" of the barrel you need to get and look at - use a camera or a viewing mirror.

    The bullet fitting shows nothing - an eroded barrel will be a bigger diameter so the bullet fitting doesn't help.

    Viewing mirror :


    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...24172603-1.jpg


    20200624-172649
    Looking into the breech the lead looks reasonable for its age. I would say wear to the first 1/4" - 1/2".

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    Legacy Member Chubbs's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Dickicon View Post
    Get some gauges.

    .301 must run
    .307 plug must not enter the muzzle more that .25"
    .310 plug must not enter the breech more than .25"

    Have you checked the forend for fit? That may be your problem. Follow the instructions on Peter Laidlericon's article in his index on this site.
    Hi Brian
    Barrel will run a .304" pin gauge and foul a .305" ping gauge.
    A .307" pin gauge will only just enter the muzzle by about .080"
    Dropping a 1.998"long .310" gauge pin in the breech it will leave a gap of .653" from barrel to base of gague. See photo.
    Front end tension seems OK.
    Last edited by Chubbs; 07-18-2024 at 09:25 AM.

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    Legacy Member Chubbs's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by ssgross View Post
    Pictures can be misleading. Even the slightest surface etching in a perfect bore will look like severe pitting if (a) there is carbon or (b) the light angle casts a shadow. Most cameras with an angled mirror have the light going parallel to the bore, causing a shadow in even the lightest of imperfections. A Birdseye picture always looks worse for this same reason. Pictures 2 and 3 look absolutely fine to me. The imperfections in 1,4 could be a glob of oil or grease, or the absence of oil in that one spot. Serious damage will look like fading edges in the rifling that remain even after complete cleaning (such as with jb bore paste), and/or large pits that cross the edge of the rifling.

    As others have said, the most important thing to examine is throat and muzzle for severe erosion. The latter can be done with a bullet, the former can also be done with a bullet, provided you can measure distance with an OAL gauge, like these https://www.hornady.com/modified-cases#!/
    you can use a bullet if you have two chambers to compare. You can also use a pin gauge of the right size (5 or 6 bucks on amazon) and reference Brian's data above.

    I did a thread comparing 3 different No. 4 chambers, one of which was new-in-the-wrap. The thread is here
    https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=73582
    The pictures didn't survive the great milsurps reset, but the measurements are there.
    I still have the "new" rifle, and have only put 20-30 rounds through it (handholds, no cordite), as well as the Longbranch, but not the other.
    Hi ssgross
    In photographs 1 and 4 it's definitely corrosion. Possibly rifle stored up side down?

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    Contributing Member bros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield View Post
    What condition is the breech end of the barrel - that's the important bit for rifles that have fired cordite :

    Reference to NC is 'Nitro Cellulose' (it is not referring to Non-Corrosive)



    Use of Cordite in Rifles

    'Regulations For Army Ordnance Services', Vol.3, Pam.11A (1949) comments:-

    APPENDIX 15

    USE OF .303-IN CORDITE AND N.C. AMMUNITION

    1. The action of Cordite propellant in the barrel of a .303-in. weapon is quite different from that of N.C. propellant.
    Cordite gives a rapid build-up of pressure with great heat, leading to pitting and erosion of the chamber end of the barrel.
    N.C., however, gives a more gradual build-up of pressure with less heat, and this in turn gives uniformity of barrel wear from chamber to muzzle, the amount of pitting and erosion being greatly reduced.

    2. With Cordite propellant, set-up of the bullet is most pronounced and even when the chamber end of the barrel is well worn, the muzzle end still has sufficient rifling left to impart the necessary spin. As the wear advances up the barrel, so the accuracy of the weapon is progressively reduced.
    With an N.C. propellant, set-up of the bullet is slow and by no means so pronounced, due to the more gradual building up of pressure. The barrel retains its original accuracy until wear reaches a critical stage, when a sudden falling off in accuracy occurs.

    3. It can be seen by comparison with the effects of barrel wear that to use N.C. ammunition in a barrel which has fired Cordite will give serious inaccuracy in flight, whereas the use of Cordite ammunition in a barrel which has fired N.C. gives good accuracy, but serious changed the wear pattern of the barrel.
    In the first case, i.e. a weapon which has fired Cordite ammunition the barrel will be eroded and fissured in the first few inches up from the chamber, the part in which obturation should occur. The poor set-up of the bullet, in the N.C. cartridge is not sufficient to give good gas sealing in such a barrel and the bullet does not, therefore, receive the maximum impulse. The resultant loss in velocity and instability due to lack of spin lead to a high degree of inaccuracy.
    In the second case, Cordite ammunition fired from a barrel which shows uniformity of wear from firing N.C. ammunition, has an adequate reserve of set-up that ensures full gas sealing, with satisfactory velocity and spin. Unless the barrel wear is in a advanced stage due to firing a large number of N.C. rounds, there will be no immediate appreciable loss in accuracy. Furthermore, the decline in accuracy for Cordite ammunition will follow the normal gradual fall-off experience in weapons firing Cordite alone, as the wear at C of R progresses.

    4. Trials have proved that even if only a few rounds of Cordite ammunition are fired from an "N.C." barrel, the ensuing accuracy life when N.C. is subsequently fired is reduced considerably. The occasional and restricted use of N.C. in a "Cordite" barrel will however, have little effect on its ensuing accuracy life for Cordite, although naturally the fire of N.C. will not be very accurate.

    5. The effect of wear of barrels can be determined by firing shots through a paper screen at 100 yards. If, on examination of the screen, all shot holes are not perfectly round, then the barrel is no longer fit for use.
    The danger lies in the fact that bullets fired erratically from badly worn barrels may overcome their instability in flight and take up a steady flight in the direction in which they happen to be pointing, with short-ranging and disastrous results if used for overhead fire. Except under these conditions of long-range firing there is no risk involved, though in normal range firing inaccurate fire will result.

    6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-

    (a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.

    (i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
    (ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
    (iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
    (iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.

    (b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.

    Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.

    (c) Light M.G.s.

    Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.

    (d) Rifles.

    N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
    above, if necessity should arise.

    7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stenciling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.

    8. It must be noted that the above restrictions apply only to ammunition fired from Britishicon weapons. All American ammunition is N.C. loaded and their weapons are designed to fire it satisfactorily.
    Thanks Allan for the very interesting article you posted here ........I had no idea and learned a lot from these experiments. Nasty stuff that cordite charged ammo!

    Interesting to think that a large number of the Lee Enfield's that we shoot today have shot cordite charged ammunition and bear the ill effects of that when using N.C ammo now. I see that Woolwich and Radway Green was still making cordite charged ammo up until 1957 for the British army.

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