Argentino M1879 Rolling Block. Is it worth restoring?

[Claven2]

Well, ummm, .577/455 is not the best calibre to use for cost arguements. It might be the most expensive BP cartridge to reload on the planet. Cases are almost $5 each. You have to anneal the necks after EVERY firing. The dies don't fit a standard reloading press and cost about $150 for even the cheap Lee dies.

But don't get discouraged! Loading .43 Mauser is nowhere near as difficult or as expensive.

Now as for the mould, the narrow band mould is a CBE mould. It's a standard offering for them, but CBE moulds are expensive. My PP mould is one I made myself in the machine shop. Don't worry - .43 Mauser molds are readily available and not too expensive.

My homemade PP mould. you press the bullets out by tapping the plunger.



As-cast on the left. And yes I know these castings aren't ideal, the mould wasn't hot enough when these two rejects were cast.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[killforfood]

Er... Joel, if you're reading this...don't let differing opinions stop you turning that RB into a whizz-bang shooter!

Patrick/Calven2,Jmoore, I enjoy learning all aspects of a subject yet still manage to employ “KISS” methods.
Right now my goal is to just make it go BANG!!! My budget won’t allow much more.
Don’t let that stop you all from posting up the advanced material though. Pictures speak volumes and I was able to immediately see the dramatic difference in Claven2’s fire formed shoulders. The rest of the pictures (like the pan of bullets) make me think, why does he do that, how does he do that, I want to do that. At some point all of the advanced reference material will come in handy but for now I still need and appreciate Patrick’s spoon feeding.

How's the "boning up" coming along?

Well, “boning up” was going great till I contracted it out to the Dog. She tries hard but I think she’s easily distracted from the primary task at hand. As you can see, the butt stock looks much worse now since she took over. I had to fire her.






She accepted a new position as Head Cat Hunter but I’m afraid that’s not working out either.





On another note, the rim thickness is .090”

I tried again last night to get some good muzzle shots but the auto features fought me to a truce. If I can figure out how to control speed, aperture and focus on this little auto camera, we might get somewhere. The paper towel tube was helpful but now the light in the barrel is being over exposed. These cameras are too smart for their own good.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I tried again last night to get some good muzzle shots but the auto features fought me to a truce.

That's what drives me up the wall too! In the myriads of features which one never learns how to use, it would be so handy if one just had a good old manual focus for such shots.

Right now my goal is to just make it go BANG!!! My budget won’t allow much more.

Very understandable. I therefore propose that you leave the reloading business to one side for the moment. It is such a high entry threshold to acquire lead melting pot, lead, tin (or solder), dies, black powder, cases, moulds etc etc before you can even start on making your own ammo, that it might be a good idea to get a 20 pack from Buffalo arms to verify that the rifle is a usable shooter before investing in the rest. Hang on a mo while I take a look ...

Yeah, I would get a 20 pack to make a test. They use the 370 gn round-nose with a 20:1 lead- tin mix, which is what I was recommending anyway. I notice they also have the Barker book "Shooting the 43 Spanish Rolling Block".

Important tip: If you buy ready-made ammo, assume that the reloaders did their homework and see if you can learn something from the ready-mades. Keep one cartridge as a size reference (OAL), and one which you can dismantle to see how it was assembled - bullet weight, powder weight (even though you do not know the type, post a pic of the powder next to a primer as a size reference, and I can then make a guess as to the granulation), wads, filler, lubricant etc. The bullet and case from the dismantled example can then be used to establish the optimum seating depth for you rifle (or at least a very good first approximation).

First Test Shoot
Please, do not make this test until I have seen pics of the muzzle end of the rifling now it has been cleaned, and given you my comments.

OK, so you have 18 loaded cartridges left. And we have not yet tackled the muzzle recrowning. But who knows? Maybe you can get away without it, which is why I am so keen to see some good pics, if you can defeat the camera automatics.

The use of the 18 would be (all shots off a sandsack):
a)
3 shots at a very short range indeed - about 25 yards! This is to check that you are going to be on the paper at 50 yards, and the shots are not keyholing. If there is keyholing, then stop at this point, because a recrowning is necessary. I have had rifles that would not have been on the paper at 50 yards (including The Mahdi, of course), so do not skip this step. Please post pics of the result.

b)
If 25yards was OK, then you have 15 shots left.
Now make a first 5-shot groups at 50 yards. Depending on how that turns out, you might be able to try 100 yards, or may have to adjust the sights and redo the 50 yard group. The position of the group on the 50 yard test will enable you (with a little advice from me) to set the sights so that you have a good chance of being on target at 100. So please post pics of this target as well. And take a look to see if the 20-pack has any info on the anticipated muzzle velocity (that helps with sight correction)
Do not feel tempted to miss the 50 yard test and go straight to 100 yards. This is very likely to waste a lot of that expensive ammo.

c) If 50 yards is OK, then you have 5 or 10 shots left for 1 or 2 x 5-shot groups at 100 yards.

And if you can get an acceptable group at 100 yards, you have done it! You have turned a junker into a usable rifle again. Pictures are a must!

And then you can get serious about bullet casting and reloading!

End of Part 10

P.S:
Re. boss cat. We had a cat and dog with a similar relationship. The cat (named "Ginny", so you can guess the coloring) used to lie smack bang in the middle of the dog's bed, leaving the dog cringing at the edge, half on the floor. Looks like if your cat leant on the dog, the dog would give way.
Do you know the cat's fighting weight, or won't the local weighbridge take it?

Look closely at your pic. The table is clearly bending down to the left!

Re. start-up costs. Inspired by Claven2's opinion that the M-H was possibly the most expensive cartridge to reload, I took a look at the Buffalo Arms site. If you and Claven2 would care to glance at the price for ready-loaded ammo for the 43 Egyptian, you will get a real shock.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Er...... Joel....sorry to be so inquisitive ....but the rifle under the dog's bone... is that the one we have been dealing with....????

.... or is it the next candidate for refurbishment????

[killforfood]

Patrick,
I don’t mind making my own loads but the cost to start pouring my own bullets is a little steep right now. I would need to buy lead, tin, a mould, lube and whatever else is needed to start pouring my own. For now a box of 50 bullets for $15 sounds a lot better.
Track of the Wolf - bullets, .439" diameter, 370 grain, round nose, bevel base, for .43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block Rifle, from Lyman 439-186 mold, SPG lube, BHN 11.1, pack of 50


One unavoidably expensive item will be black powder. There’s just no getting around the HAZ-MAT fees. It doesn’t matter whether you buy 1lb or 50lbs, you still gotta pay the MAN. So if I buy just one lb, the HAZ-MAT will more than double the cost and that doesn’t even include shipping. No local stores will carry black powder because of the strict BATF magazine requirements. This is one of those times where I’ll just have to bite the bullet and buy enough pounds to make it worth my while. I believe you suggested FFg or 1.5-Fg in another thread. Is that correct?

Current shopping list,

Jamison .43 Spanish Cases 20ct $43.
43 Spanish Jamison Cases, Buffalo Arms Co.

370gr Round Nose Bullets 50ct $25.59
Cowboy Gun Lead Cast Bullet .439" Dia. 370 Grn. RN 20-1 Alloy SPG Lubed

Lee Reloading Dies $36.29
Lee Reloading 2 Die Set for 43 Spanish Black Powder Cartridge

Powder $$$$$ ????
Swiss Black Powder and Schuetzen Black Powder for Cowboy Guns - BPCR - Muzzleloaders - Cannons - Mortars - Major Black Powder Supplier


I’ve also been shopping @ Track Of The Wolf.
They seem to have good prices on supplies and powder but there’s no way I can buy the minimum 25lbs.
Track of the Wolf - for .43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block

Do you know the cat's fighting weight, or won't the local weighbridge take it?

The last Time my Son put him on a scale, He was 25lb!!! He pretty much owns the house. Even the big Lab knows not to mess with him.

.... or is it the next candidate for refurbishment????

OK you’re on to me. It’s the next candidate for refurbishment. It’s an old beat up shotgun of questionable lineage. It’s not Milsurp, so I posted pictures on another forum but nobody could identify it.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I would need to buy lead, tin,

I buy bits of lead flashing and solder from a local scrap merchant. 20 lb of lead and 2 lb of solder will make you about 400 x 370 gn bullets.

For now a box of 50 bullets for $15 sounds a lot better.

Agreed.

I believe you suggested FFg or 1.5-Fg in another thread. Is that correct?

Correct.

Powder: Swiss is by far and way the most popular powder for BPCRs here. It has the reputation of being clean-burning and very consistent. I do not know the Schuetzen Powder, but I believe if you take a close look at the label, it is Wano powder relabelled for the US market. That is also OK. But do not use any of the substitutes for BP - they all have drawbacks.

but there’s no way I can buy the minimum 25lbs.

That is another good reason to make contact with other BP shooters in your area - so you can share minimum orders!

It’s an old beat up shotgun of questionable lineage. It’s not Milsurp, so I posted pictures on another forum but nobody could identify it.

Well stick the pics up here, and I am sure its origin can be narrowed down This is a restoration forum, so techniques and tips are more important than what kind of gun it is. And as for "questionable lineage" - a lot of shotguns were made by boring out military rifles when they were "retired". Could be one of those.
(OK, moderators?)

[jmoore]

Try a piece of cardboard with a hole in the center of about barrel diameter to give something for the camera to focus upon for a straaight on shot. Angled shots of the muzzle will require a bit of creative positioning of the chosen masking medium. All you are trying to do is to keep the range finder fom "looking past" the small area that you intend to shoot. I've used wadded towels and such as well. (I've got a similar auto-focus only camera that's quite annoying most of the time!)


Towel to made focus possible, try different things!

ETA: Such as a book w/ a cellophane wrapper....Maybe not the best choice!


But sometimes it can be made to work (w severe cropping!):



It's NOT art. Just an ammytoor's efforts to illustrate.



---------- Post added at 03:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 AM ----------

Editing note: Done fixed above link and added some content about five hours after intial post. If I knew what I was doing it would be way better!

[jmoore]

Well, in the interim, to see the towel trick in use, see the following thread (if the link works, this "mobile" posting feature has limitations!):

1879 Remington Lee Photos, etc. (Warning! LOTS of big photos)

(1879 Remington Lee Photos...) in the "other U.S. Service rifles" forum.

The other drama I have is with the auto flash. For close-up work I've used small pieces of milk jug taped over the flash (up to three layers!) to keep from getting too much glare. Trying not to have to haul a whole photo studio about as pictures are regularly taken in 3 different counties!

HTH


ETA:After editing post #117 this post may not add much, but I reckon it'll stay..

[killforfood]

I just did a Google search for "Jamison .43 Spanish" and guess what popped up on the first page










Wait for it...






THIS THREAD

We're somebody now
jamison .43 spanish - Google Search
Our quest for relevence is complete, Google has found us

Jmoore, Thanks for the photo hints, I'll work on it.

Joel.

[DaveN]

I've enjoyed this so much. I think I am way far away from this stuff (translation:level ) . But I'm having fun learning, thanks to all.