Unertl 8X scope SN 1114 - was it USMC?

[Seaforth72]

A military buddy, who served in the USMC Force Recon in Viet Nam, just sent me an 8X Unertl scope in the military Micarta carrying case as a gift. It has the figure "8" on a ring, signifying 8X I believe. Sadly the scope is in very poor condition, no bluing remains and it is missing a couple of screws. There is no recoil return spring. This scope is marked J. UNERTL / 1114 and was found in a proper Micarta case in an old army surplus store about 5 years ago. I am a Lee-Enfield buff, do not know a lot about the U.S. rifles and my reference books are mostly on the British type weapons.

On-line references describe the USMC sniper Unertls e.g. "The scope was marked "USMC SNIPER" and serialized from 1000 to 2775. The scope came with a Micarta carrying case."
http://olive-drab.com/od_other_firea..._m1941usmc.php

A search of the Internet including this forum and my resulting creation of a small database of UNERTL 8X scopes show that those known to be USMC are marked J. UNERTL / USMC - SNIPER. / #### I have not turned up a lower serial number than 1114 so far that is "known" to be USMC.

My questions are:

1. Could this Unertl 8X scope SN 1114 have been a USMC issued sniper scope? (I have to measure the diameters still.)

2. Did the markings on the USMC Unertl 8X scopes vary during production? I know that marking on the Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. I (T) sniper rifles evolved over time during WWII.

3. Does anyone have, or know of, an Unertl 8X USMC scope with a lower SN than 1114?

4. Would this scope have had a recoil return spring?

5. Can anyone suggest sources for replacement screws?

Thank you

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Seaforth72]

[IMG][/IMG]

[Promo]

For whatever reason this scope looks like a legit USMC sniper scope to me. And no wonder they had hid it somewhere, poor little thing. How are the optics, any crosshair still visible?

If you're going to part with it, let me know!

[Seaforth72]

Markings: The early WWII British sniper rifles' marking system is known to have evolved over the first couple of years. Some markings did not appear in the first year or so. I am curious to know if ALL of the USMC scopes were marked J. UNERTL / USMC- SNIPER / #### from the very beginning of their procurement. This is probably impossible to know unless documented specimens are known which have different markings from later standardized versions. We know for example a 1903 Springfield that went to the UK and later back to the States and is now in a private collection, with SN ending in ... 1776, does not have the normal "US" marking. Exceptions do exist.

Serial numbers: I wonder how certain researchers are about the serial number range of the USMC scopes being 1,000 to about 2,775 as this one, 1114, falls within that range but does not have the USMC-SNIPER marking. Given the pressures of war, did the USMC accept scopes without the special USMC-SNIPER marking?

[vintage hunter]

The lowest s/n I've seen is no. 1015 and the highest is no. 2759 and they all had the USMC-SNIPER marking.

[Chuckindenver]

this is the first scope that i would say, has been issued and used on a Genuine USMC snipers rifle...

[Sgt. Tom]

Chuck,
That is exactly what I was thinking....At least it LOOKS like it saw every rain shower in the South Pacific !!

Sorry I can't offer anything constructive.
Tom

[mike radford]

Lowest number I have seen is 1004 and it was USMC marked. It was also rebuilt and parkerized. It was on a pretty well used 1903 with a Star gauged barrel and a NM stock. I have also seen one scope without USMC markings, which had been removed, probably to hide US ownership like was done to so many M1911s. The case is a $700-1000 item. The scope is worth restoring, although I am not totally sure that it was a military scope so far.

As to having a recoil/return spring, the USMC took them off. They were not supposed to be used on the rifles. One should pull the scope back with each shot.

[Seaforth72]

Thank you all. Next questions then ...

6. Did Unertl ever duplicate serial number runs between military and civilian production? In other words, could this be part of a parallel civilian production run?

7. Other than 1114, has anyone seen an Unertl 8X scope without the USMC-SNIPER marking but within the 1,000 to about 2,775 serial number range associated with USMC?

8. What is the source for the serial number range 1,000 - 2,775 and how official is that source?

Colin

[Neal Myers]

The USMC markings are found on every USMC contract Unertl. I don't know of any large scope order by the War Dept that was submitted without evaluation of the commercial version of the scope to see if it was satisfactory. (Weaver 330 series, Lyman Alaskan, but probably not the M84)

Add in where it was found, I would think that yours is an evaluation scope. (Unertl wouldn't have asked for it's return.) But, you aren't going to find anything in the way of proof that it is the real thing, & probably nothing on exact serial numbers of contract scopes actually issued. It was just inconsiderate of the soldiers working in supply not to keep detailed records; they should have known that, 75 years later, inquiring minds would want to know.

Neal