T less t's

[tonyd]

so whats the general rule about a no4 t with no T stamped on it, a partly finished one or a regect? or is it early enough to have missed out on the t? the one im looking at is a 1943 m47c serial number ap### has the tr and the s but no T. its definatly no fake the pads are original and have been there from day one. this rifle has had a LOT of use im guessing its had a military life as no hunter or target shooter could bruise and wear the bluing off a rifle this much. surely if it was a regect/ spare they would have taken the pads off it and put it back into service or were they just left as is?

Information

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[Seaforth72]

Key evidence is a scope serial number on wrist of butt, ... or not.

By the time the BSA Shirley "M47C" mark was in use (1944) the British markings were pretty standardized. A 1944-1945 British made rifle with pads and cheekrest but with no T mark almost certainly indicated that it was a No.4 Mk.I (T. LESS TELESCOPE). This means that for some reason the conversion process on that rifle was halted partway through the process.

If it is a late one e.g. Serial number X3xxxx, it would likely be end of war ... stop conversions. If it is earlier like 1943, then that would likely be a reject.

It is a very tricky area.

[bros]

Key evidence is a scope serial number on wrist of butt, ... or not.

By the time the BSA Shirley "M47C" mark was in use (1944) the British markings were pretty standardized. A 1944-1945 British made rifle with pads and cheekrest but with no T mark almost certainly indicated that it was a No.4 Mk.I (T. LESS TELESCOPE). This means that for some reason the conversion process on that rifle was halted partway through the process.

If it is a late one e.g. Serial number X3xxxx, it would likely be end of war ... stop conversions. If it is earlier like 1943, then that would likely be a reject.

It is a very tricky area.

Colin.......funny that you should mention that. I was looking at another one I own, a 1945 BSA Shirley M47C sniper serial # X3xxxx with all the correct stampings associated with snipers including scope serial # on wrist of butt........but no T stamp on left side wall of receiver ( yes I have verified that butt is original to rifle as upon removal of the butt the hidden serial number is the same as the rifle serial #).
I wonder if this rifle is considered a scopeless T? That really doesn't make any sense, why would the scope # be on the wrist of the butt then?

[bigduke6]

Pictures can say a thousand words...........

[Roger Payne]

As mentioned some photo's might help, as would the knowledge of whether there is a scope serial on the butt or not. If there is the serial would also be useful.

I've never seen a No4 (T) that had got as far as being fitted with pads at H&H that was a 'reject'. Very few were rejected. It is likely that it is either a conversion to a rifle 'less Telescope' or a full conversion that escaped getting the receiver side wall T. The H&H marking system evolved during the course of production, but had pretty much been standardized by late 1943. Additionally BSA moved from marking their rifles from a simple 'B' followed by the date, to M47, & then to M47/C, all during the course of 1943 & in that order. I would agree that a rifle bearing the M47/C suggests production in lateish 1943, & so might be expected to be more likely to bear the full complement of markings, but in my experience it is unwise to be too pedantic about these things. Depending on what the OP can tell us additionally about the rifle we may never know for sure, although if it retains it's original butt bearing a serial number of a Mk1 or Mk2 scope then it probably just missed the 'T' or was one of those rifles that came off the production line 'the week before' they standardized! If the butt bears the serial number of just one scope but it is of a Mk3, then it is likely a 'less Telescope' rifle that was subsequently scoped up. If it bears more than one scope serial number; a Mk1/2 followed by other(s), then it is probably a completed 'pre-T' or 'missed out on a T' rifle that was subsequently re-equipped with a later model scope.

I don't know whether this helps much........

[tonyd]

cheers so far guys, actually this one is stampd m47 no c, it does have a scope number in the wrist and the scope it now has is a mk1, tho it is a forced match to this rifle as the old rifle number is still painted on the scope tin and this rifles number stamped on the lid beside old rifles number, the lable inside the tin is matched to the scope number too. no number on bracket. so scope and matching tin came off another rifle but has been forced matched to this rifle at some time, also its been rebarreld with a 44 dated barrel. possably a new forewood too this rifle has seen some heavy use.

[bigduke6]

cheers so far guys, actually this one is stampd m47 no c, it does have a scope number in the wrist and the scope it now has is a mk1, tho it is a forced match to this rifle as the old rifle number is still painted on the scope tin and this rifles number stamped on the lid beside old rifles number, the lable inside the tin is matched to the scope number too. no number on bracket. so scope and matching tin came off another rifle but has been forced matched to this rifle at some time, also its been rebarreld with a 44 dated barrel. possably a new forewood too this rifle has seen some heavy use.

Still need pictures, as it sounds like the tin has been matched to the scope, unless its obvious the butt has been recently stamped.

[Roger Payne]

If the rifle is a M47 no C, then the fact that there's no receiver side wall 'T' doesn't matter a lot. I've owned a number of these 43 rifles &, if not all, most didn't have one, or it was applied after the event by a judicious armourer.

Can you decipher the (presumed) original scope number on the butt? I'd expect it to be a Mk1 or an early Mk2 instrument.

[tonyd]

no old scope number there at all just the mk1 scope number it has now.

[bros]

I just picked up, a M47C a couple of months ago and it is all correct and matching.........matching fore-end, scope, bracket, butt. Has the TR on the wrist, T on the receiver wall, S51 stamped butt, but is missing the S on the magazine cut off. Like Roger said it was probably just an oversight.....I used to get all wound up about a sniper missing a single stamp in the lineage of things, not any more. I also recently acquired a LB 1945 T......no Maltese cross on the rear sight as should be because it's a Savage but they did stamp it on the fore-end. Lets not forget the human element and that there was a war going on.