.303Br with Cast/Preliminary Results

[Beadwindow]

Hello Again,

Continuing the practice of reporting on my experiences with cast bullets, this week I'll be providing findings with two Lee Enfields that I fired last Saturday. They were a #5 Jungle Carbine dated January 1945, replete with Ishapore screw and scrubbed markings (the manufacturing date was barely visible). While the finish on the metal was worn, the rifling was great and there were no major dings on the wood. The second rifle was an Ishapore SMLE #1mk3* with GRI markings indicating that it was of pre-independance origin. The rifle looks like it was arsenal refurbed at some point, and had a perfect bore beneath the thick grease preservative. Luckily both rifles seemed clean of copper fouling while being cleaned/prepared to shoot cast.

Similar to the Mannlichers that I tried the previous weekend, loads were prepared with 18grs of H4198, 17grs of H4227 and 24grs of IMR3031. The bullets were Lee 185 Gr with gas checks,sized to .311 and fired with Win LR primers and Winchester cases, except for the IMR 3031 loads that were fired from S&B cases. This week I had my MTM Predator Shooting Rest instead of just resting the forend on wooden blocks like with the Mannlichers. I suspect that I'll be purchasing a heavier rest eventually, since the recoil from my relatively minor loads did tend to move the rifle and rest after each shot, and with open sights it was difficult to tell whether the rifle was sighted back to the precise same aiming point. If I'm doing anything wrong with the rest, please tell me! I was able to get considerably tighter groups later in the day trying to sight in my M305 with a 9x scope at 50yrds, but only because the magnification ensured that I fired at the same aiming point after re-adjusting the rifle after most shots. Incidentally, the B-Square mount that I was using and economy scope will require some Loctite to keep the scope from shifting between groups.

The first rifle fired was the SMLE, which consistently shot about 1 1/2 to 2inches low and a bit more to the right. My first group at 50yds with H4198measured 2.9 inches or 1.8 inches if you counted the best four of five. My second group with H4227 measured 3.3 inches, however with 2 shots very close together and another two close to each other but 2 inches lower, I think that movement of the rifle at some point between shots might have changed the point of impact. My final group with four rounds of IMR 3031 gave a solid 2" group just over 2 inches to the right and about an inch low. Though my groups weren't exactly bragging material, and might have been increased by the factors mentioned, it was reassuring to see bullets clustering fairly consistently with all loads, perhaps approaching what I might be able to get from a .22 semi-auto at those ranges. The one flier in my first group (H4198) and vertical spread with H4227 could have been due to the effect of small charges in large cases, though I'll keep paying attention to any trends to see if that is really the case.

Firing the Jungle Carbine, my first group missed the target completely, though with the bolt removed I was able to bore sight the rifle by raising the sight elevation to 500m. They could probably still be raised a few clicks as the following groups tended to shoot just a bit low. My first group with H4198 was an unimpressive evenly spread 3.3 inches. With H4227 I was able to get a more respectable 2.1 inch grouping. IMR 3031 did alright, with a 4.1 inch group, but 1.9" with the best four out of five. Some later practice of three groups in sitting, kneeling and standing positions suggested that I need some further practice with this rifle and perhaps some more accurate loads if I'm to get it shooting accurately at 100-200m. At least the reduced loads made the Jungle Carbine fun to shoot, though I'd expect better accuracy with the peep sights and a barrel in such good condition.

In conclusion, the cast bullets did decently in the SMLE, though I might want to try the 200m setting, as well as adjust the front sight a bit to the right, otherwise she might shoot to the right of the target at distances beyond
100m. Accuracy was good enough to suggest a decent fit of bullets to bore, and all powders tested did fine. The Jungle Carbine was a different ballgame however and I might try some unsized bullets through her next time (any hints on how to get the gas checks on without the sizer would be greatly appreciated!). Since by all acounts the accuracy of my M95 rifle the previous week was unusually good, I realized beforehand not to get disappointed should I not match that previous week's success. If I find the time to load up the 50 bullets that I currently have available, I might have another report for next week, perhaps through my #4mk1 as well. I might also pick up Alliant 2400 at the range and see how that fares on a later outing.

With Regards,

Frank

Information

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[Badger]

Very educational partner, particularly for a neophyte in this topic area like me....

I learned something from your post .... thanks...

You should bind these posts into an electronic PDF document and we can put them in the technical articles area of the MKL (Milsurp Knowledge Library).

Regards,
Badger

[Beadwindow]

Very educational partner, particularly for a neophyte in this topic area like me....

I learned something from your post .... thanks...

You should bind these posts into an electronic PDF document and we can put them in the technical articles area of the MKL (Milsurp Knowledge Library).

Regards,
Badger

Hi Badger,

I've kept the targets referred to in my posts and might be purchasing a digital camera in the next couple of months to help with posting those as well. If nothing else, I'm sure that a friend could snap the photos for me. Though my next priority is to glass bed and sight in my 9.3mm Husky's before I'm away in August, I'll hopefully also be casting for my 8mm Mausers and .308bullets for some 7.62 NATO and Swiss rifles, perhaps even 7.62x39 if I could find enough brass. I'd be happy to put all of my findings to the purpose that you've proposed.

With Regards,

Frank

[robertbank]

I have pertty much settled on 18.5 gr of 4227 under a Lyman 314299 boolit sized .313 in my Longbranch. Accuracy is excellent considering my eyes aren't what they used to be. AT 100 yds I can keep them in a 4" circle if I do my part. Another load that I like is 16 gr of 2400 under the same boolit.

Take Care

Bob

[10x]

I have pertty much settled on 18.5 gr of 4227 under a Lyman 314299 boolit sized .313 in my Longbranch. Accuracy is excellent considering my eyes aren't what they used to be. AT 100 yds I can keep them in a 4" circle if I do my part. Another load that I like is 16 gr of 2400 under the same boolit.

Take Care

Bob

I use 13 grains of Unique under the Lyman 314299 bullet unsized but lubed with a gas check. This is very close to a max load with this bullet according to the lyman manual. I have found these bullets are more accurate unsized than sized.
I have also found that one martine 303 and two No.4 rifles will cause the bullet to tumble with every cast bullet I have tried. All have bores larger than 0.314".

[buffdog]

.
I'll have to go back through my "Handloaders Digests" to find a good article on cast bullets for most Surplus rifles.

I believe the article was written by C.E. Harris, who contributed many articles to the "American Rifleman", and leaned toward cast bullets. In this article, he suggested a load of 13 grains of Red Dot. I have used this load as a reference or starting load for most military rifles such as .303, 7.62X54 Russian, 7mm Mauser, 8mm Mauser, .308, 30-06, 30-40, and various other calibres of the same case capacity.

WARNING....DO NOT USE THIS LOAD IN SMALLER CASES SUCH AS 7.62X39.

Back many moons ago, when I was shooting targets, I used up a lot of cast bullets in .303 calibre. I had one rifle set aside for cast bullets only, and used it for practice. With proper sight adjustments, I could shoot about as well with a cast bullet to 300 yards as I could with issue Mark 7 ammo.

One critical thing you have to do. Clean out ALL the copper from the bore. If you fire cast bullets, then jacketed bullets or vise versa, you will not get the best accuracy. Really clean out the copper fouling.

I used to shoot cast bullets out to 600 yards with the .303. I used the Lyman 311299, about 205 grains, unsized, and Texaco Hot Box lube (used on railways). The rifle had a minimum bore diameter, the mould cast a 1/15 lead mixture bullet a bit oversize at .314.

I found heavier bullets tend to group better. Possibly the lighter ones do not stabilize well in the military bores. You should slug the bore and measure it. For the .303, I have seen bores running up to .319 diameter. A bullet about .002 oversize has worked best for me under most circumstances.

Lyman MADE a lot of bullet moulds in different sizes. They have cut down to a few calibres now. In the .30 calibres or .303 you could once get .308, .311,.313,.316, and .319 moulds. Also, Lyman moulds can be marked with the number and the letters "U" or "US" or "OS" meaning the mould will throw the bullet UNDERSIZED or OVERSIZED. You can still find the older Lyman moulds on E-Bay.

Lubricator-sizers such as the Lyman and RCBS, etc., do not give the best sizing accuracy. This type sizer pushes the unsized bullet downward BASE FIRST. If the nose punch is not perfectly aligned, it can tilt the bullet and you size more on one side than the other. Also, the older Lyman sizer dies had a step on them. When you pushed the bullet into the die, it shaved off a lot of lead. Newer ones were tapered, and worked better. I found the best dies at the time were home made ones that mounted in a reloading press and pushed the bullet up NOSE FIRST. There seemed to be less distortion to the bullets. LEE later made sizer dies of this design.

I still play around with cast bullets. My latest use is in a 9.3x57 Husqvarna. The larger bores seem to work better with cast bullets for accuracy and hunting. Millions of Buffalo were taken with cast bullets, so they are effective.

The way things are going pricewise and availability of components for reloading, and ammunition, I keep lots of primers, enough powder, and bullet moulds for most of my favorite rifles and calibres. It is a cheap assurance that I can still enjoy firing my rifles if need be.
.

[Warren]

try 11.2 grains of UNIQUE with dacron or kapok filler. Should be able to pick the fly **** out of the pepper at 100 yds but again, all rifles vary. Found this load worked well in most of the ones I tried it in.

[billw_willy]

I use 13 grains of Unique under the Lyman 314299 bullet unsized but lubed with a gas check. This is very close to a max load with this bullet according to the lyman manual. I have found these bullets are more accurate unsized than sized.
I have also found that one martine 303 and two No.4 rifles will cause the bullet to tumble with every cast bullet I have tried. All have bores larger than 0.314".

I'm just now reading this thread on the 303 Brit. I have a #1, #4 and #5 that taught me many lesson on bullet size after I slugged the bores and used Cerrosafe to cast the chambers and throats. The #1 5-groove worked perfectly with the 314299 casting at 0.313/0.303 body and nose, and lubed in a 0.313" size die. The #4 Long Branch 2-groove bore was 0.317"/0.303" and although the 314299 shot OK sized in a 0.314", it wasn't as accurate as I wanted and so I had a custom mould made in 0.318"/0.305" with a 0.318" lube/size die and incidentally this bullet solved the #5 keyholing with the 314299. Temporarily, I shot the #5 with Nabisco Instant Cream of Wheat (COW), granulated, not flake as a filler with a carefully reduced load of rifle powder and this took care of any keyholing. I was so happy I kept pushing the target frame from 50 out to 400 yds and got a 14" group on the 24" square frame. The #5 5-groove bore was of normal 0.313"/0.303" dimensions but the throat was larger and longer than the #4 rifle but tool marks indicated that the throat was not worn. I have not shot a jacketed bullet in any of them although I have some modern factory loads. I had no trouble getting the bigger diameter bullet to shoot in either rifle. I used Lee Collet dies to only neck size in order to preserve the limited brass I had for 3 rifles. The #5 had been "bubba'ed" by cutting off the rear sling attachment and the barrel was blued; all else was about normal other than 4 tapped holes on the left side apparently for a mount of some kind. After having cataracts and didn't know it, I designed a scope mount of aluminum to fit a Weaver base for a scope in order to see better. I now have lens implants and have distant vision vs. severe myopia (that has its advantages) and have to use reading glasses to see the FS. I made a tool to loosen the #4 FS set screw in order to adjust the FS; it is the reverse image of a flat head screwdriver made from a junk screwdriver. The #1 and 5 FS must be forced to move with the proper tools and a vernier caliper is useful to measure the amount of adjustment. I use a drift and mallet.

My powder charges have ranged from 12.0 gr Unique or AA#2(two), 17-4227, 18 gr 2230-S with COW (no airspace!) and all loads were about 1400-1500 fps and comfortable to shoot. I really like these old warhorses and I have a bunch of other military rifles and handguns I load with cast bullets.

I have found some alloys (wheelweights with arsenic) can be hardened with water dropping from the mould or heat treating in my kitchen oven at 450F for 45 minutes and quickly quenching in tap water, aged for at least 30 hours and then lubed and seating of gas checks. I usually add an equal amount of soft lead sheeting lead to my WW metal to get the sprue cuts cleaner and sharper without any tears or bumps. If the bullet needs any major sizing or other forming, it should be done prior to heat treating with gas checks seated (my best method) or immediately after heat treat with gas checks seated and lubed. The hardening process starts within 30 minutes of quenching and final hardness is reached between 30 and 72 hours. An oversized bullet after aging is a booger to get through a size or taper die and I know that for sure.
Bill McGraw

[ganderite]

I am a bit confused about how you are using the rest. Usually with a sporting type rifle I put my left hand underthe forend and rest the back of my hand on the rest. I aim the rifle carefully for every shot, holding the rifle quite firmly.

Your description makes it sound like you are not aiming after the first shot - but I must be misreading that part.

[Dante]

I am using SR4759 (20.0 gns.) topped with plastic filler under a 210 grain bullet. I use the SR4759 as I already had it on hand to load "duplex" in my 57 Sniders and 577-450 Martini Henrys. These are the first with the filler which weighed 12.7 grns. to fill to within 3/16" of the case mouth. Off to the range when I get a chance. Bullets are from MT Chambers Supply...x-hard alloy with gas check @ 205 grns. and .314" diameter. I believe the bullet is the 314299 from Lyman. Great to see some posts about using cast.