Here;s some neat old bullets, reeking of history, but ...

[RJW NZ]

how do you fire a lead bullet, get the rifling marks, and not deform the bullet in some way? especially at the short distances reported. You might do it into water, but not dirt or sand. What about flesh? I might bid on one of these, but am interested in the potential for fakery , exageration or inaccurate reporting?

Martini Henry Relic Rorke's Drift Compound Zulu War on eBay (end time 11-Jul-10 12:09:51 BST)

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[Bricari]

You offer interesting points. Watching ebay I have seen a number of these curios for sale over the last 18 months? I also would have thought that there would have been some damage to the projectile as it was obliviously fired within the compund or perhaps the buildings where they retreated to.

[smellie]

You both make good points, but.....

1. If they were firing FROM the compound, the bullets would have been going outward, away from where they were fired

2. The MV of the Martini-Henry rifle, despite the huge charge, was only what you expect of a 'high-velocity' .22, NOT one of the modern hyper-velocity rounds: less damage

3. This bullet DOES have what appears in the photo to be damage at the forward end.

This is definitely a Martini-Henry bullet and, furthermore, it is correct for the early Boxer rolled-case ammunition with which the Zulu War was fought. Later MH ammunition which was issued with the Drawn Case, had only a single cannelure, but the original Boxer cartridges had a double cannelure. I can see the impressions of 3 lands on a little less than half of the circumference, so it was fired from a Martini-Henry rifle allright, the Henry barrels having 7 lands.

TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909 gives the specs for this round at 1350 ft/sec MV, the bullet material as "HARD LEAD".

I have personally discovered Mark VI .303 bullets on a First World War rifle range which has been disused since that time and, with a bit of cleaning up, they actually look as good as this one. Of course, the Mark VI WAS jacketed. I also have a pocketful of 7.62x39 slugs which were fired on one of our local ranges, and the maximum possible there is only 300 yards. I also have .45ACP, .303 Mark VII and various and sundry .38s from this same range. Backstop is mixed clay and shale. A .50M2 round simply strips away the entire outer part of the projectile and all you can pick up, most of the time, is the penetrator core.

So strange things ARE possible, whether or not we believe in them. I DO have a Minie ball from Antietam, found in the Corn Field, with only relatively minor skirt damage. If one had an Enfield Pattern 1853 (which I have) and the Damn Yankees were to attack, it WOULD be possible to fire it again. But MOST of the dug-up bullets have far more damage than mine; this one, I believe, was preserved mostly by the soft agricultural soil into which it dug.

But then, to further your suspicions, it was always my understanding (based on old rounds in my possession) that the Martini-Henry ammunition was PAPER-PATCHED. This projectile gives little indication of ever having had a paper patch but, if you look carefully at the right point, you can see that there has been something where a patch should be.

There are no longer ANY ranges in this part of the country where anyone possibly could dig such a thing. Can someone from a place where the Government does NOT bulldoze the rifle-ranges kindly interject here and inform me that I am full of it? Or do we accept this?

There was a lot of ammo expended at Rorke's Drift.

I know that Assegais survived from the battle; I have held one (thanks, John!). But did Martini-Henry bullets also survive?

This one appears to have been fired into light, relatively sandy soil in a dry climate. Does this fit Rorke's Drift? I don't know. I have never been to Rhodesia or South Africa and so have no personal experience with their climate. I would expect more corrosion if it had been fired in this part of the world, but we average something like 30 inches of rain a year. That is against it, of course. But if it were dug as related, it only was buried for somewhat under 25 years, which definitely would account for its rather nice condition. This IS an old bullet: no question. You don't shoot something like this and have it with a surface like this if you shoot it today and dig it out next week, or even next year.

I am guessing, patently and unabashedly. Until I knew more about it, I likely would accept it as real, were it given to me by someone from that part of the world. But to purchase one.... that well could be a different matter. That said, it is a VERY good thing that I don't have any plastic!

[Beerhunter]

This bullet was recovered from the RSAF Enfield Lock. Unfortunately I have no way of knowing what it was fired from.

[finloq]

His British Army Corporal great-grandfather seems to be one of the most prolific archaeologists of his age, seven expeditions in 18 years! If I am reading that right. I wonder why he is selling off his grandfather's life work for a pittance? We are not talking about something that his great-grandfather aquired over the years. We are talking about how his great-grandfather went to a foreign and hostile land and somehow received permission to excavate a historical sight, collected artifacts and again received permission to remove the artifacts from said nation. His great-grandfather, preserved his life's work and passed it down to his son, who passed it down to HIS son, who passed it down to HIS son, who is selling it off at £19.99. Obviously these are deeply important family heirlooms.

[smellie]

He says that his GGF dug or gathered these during the Boer War. That was 1899-1902. Rorke's Drift was, I believe, 1879: only 20 years before.

And that was before ANY nation thought BEANS about archaeology. In fact, it was just about that time that Arthur Evans actually BOUGHT Knossos, only 50 years after Lord Elgin ripped the Elgin Marbles from the facade of the Parthenon and the Porch of the Erechtheum and while Egypt was positively overrun by archaeologists who behaved more like treasure-hunters than as responsible scientists. It was later men, such as Sir Flinders Petrie, who laid the foundation for the modern science, but even he got a bit enthusiastic at times.

A modern equivalent would be going into the Iraqi desert and picking up a bullet from the Gulf War: same time separation.

Friend of mine was down in Paraguay a few years ago, brought me back rifle casings from the Gran Chaco War. Nobody cared. I have been in a gun shop and observed a double-handful of mixed .303 Cordite Mark II, DM-K 7x53 and DM 7x57 in a bin, along with a single 7.65 Borchardt round. It was all old, all dated (the Mauser rounds, anyway: Mark II .303 was not dated) and all stained very similarly. Obviously, this was a little Boer War bring-back hoard owned by a veteran of that sad conflict, now gone from us, whose great-grandchildren didn't care worth beans about his treasures. So I bought as many as I had money for, including the super-early no-headstamp Borchardt cartridge and a couple of the super-rare 7x53s.... and went home. 25 cents a pop.

I'm not defending the guy and, if the things are real... maybe he doesn't care.

WE care, that's for sure. But WE aren't John Q. Public, whose next thought is for a fast beer.

But even at 20 quid a pop, that's okay for old lead: $400 a pound.

All I can say is that it's the right type and from the right period and it certainly was shot from a Henry barrel. I wasn't looking over GGF's shoulder when he found it.... and I know nothing about his GGS, that's for sure.

BTW, what are the measurements and weight of that specimen from RSAF Enfield? RIGHT-hand rifling, you note. They tested a LOT of strange stuff there toward the end of the BP era, including LEE rifles in .433 and .45-70. This could be interesting!

[Beerhunter]

BTW, what are the measurements and weight of that specimen from RSAF Enfield? RIGHT-hand rifling, you note. They tested a LOT of strange stuff there toward the end of the BP era, including LEE rifles in .433 and .45-70. This could be interesting!

1.22" long by .450 (ish) 465.4 Gns. weight.

Believe it or not, I got it and the other bullet below (what do you think that has been fired from?) for my Birthday last year. I haven't had any time to research either. Although I do know what the big one is.

[TonyE]

1.22" long by .450 (ish) 465.4 Gns. weight.

Believe it or not, I got it and the other bullet below (what do you think that has been fired from?) for my Birthday last year. I haven't had any time to research either. Although I do know what the big one is.

Probably unfair of me to chip into this one, but I might as well. It is the proj. from a 1" Aiming Rifle (sub-calibre to our US friends). Did that come from the RSAF ranges as well?

My best find on those ranges was a 7.92 x 57 Czech cartridge case from the trials of the ZB53 gun that became the British 7.92mm BESA tank gun. The headstamp is exactly that shown in the ZB53 trial report.

Regards
TonyE

Regards
TonyE

[Son]

I've done a little bit of bullet hunting too. I found a landmark on a mate's property that gave me an idea that there might be projectiles in the gravel bank underneath it. It didn't take much time just picking these up off the ground to half fill a take away food container. These are some of what my girls and I gathered. There were 9mm jacketed projectiles and cases, .303, .455 lead slugs and a few .45 slugs and cases too (don't think there's any in this pic). Some were in surprisingly good condition.

[browningautorifle]

The small one looks like a .38-200. Measure it and weigh it. That would give a close idea. The top one looks like a 577 snider.