Bren 3/1

[Joe H]

Peter,

There is a discussion going on here in the US as to whether Bren Mk 1's were converted to Mk 3's. I did find a topic here that indicated there were some 1 to 3 conversions done at Ishapore (India). Where any such conversions done at Enfield?

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=20594

The discussion started as to which Mks were converted to L4 7.62 Nato. "Bren Gun Saga" shows only Mk2's and 3's. Would one think that any original Mk 1's would have ended up being converted to L4's as 1's converted to 3's ?

Thanks ,
Joe

Information

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[ActionYobbo]

The real question is... Are Mk3 bodies made by modifying Mk1 bodies or are they made new or are they made by modifying Mk2 bodies?

The "discussion" on the other site has nothing to do with the Mk3/1 from India.

[sundance8]

The real question is... Are Mk3 bodies made by modifying Mk1 bodies or are they made new or are they made by modifying Mk2 bodies?

Per the discussion on the other forum this is the question we are trying to get answered.

[Lee Enfield]

Technically it's complicated by describing 7.62 Bren as an "L4"...

The South Africans converted MkI & MkII Brens to 7.62x51, but I don't believe that anyone considers them to be L4 variants.


The Indians bought British L4s and also converted MkI, MkIII Brens to L4 status, and also new manufactured a MK3 variant as an L4 (IB) - thicker side walls and it didn't require the added in feed guide lips so it didn't have the 2 distinctive disks on either side of the mag well.

Having said that, the Indian designation is not L4A1/2/3/4/5/6 ect. It is "IA" (L4A2/A4) (Mk3 bren converted), IB (a new manufacture "L4A4" for all intents)Ordnance Factory Board , IC (Mk1 (or MkIM) converted to Mk2/Mk3 folding rear sight and 7.62).

As to an Indian 7.62 converted Bren MkII? I've never seen one, nor reference to them, but if they converted MkI brens, why not??


examples of a previous discussion are her: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....ht=Indian+bren


If you want to get really esoteric, apparently the Norwegians and the Italians converted .303 Brens to .30-06....?? never seen any real discussion of that...

[AmEngRifles]

Oops, thought I had hit the reply button on Peter's observation on Norwegians and Italian efforts in converting Brens to 30.06. This questions is in regards to that statement.

OK, let's get REALLY esoteric! On the 30.06 conversion, when a country does that sort of thing, do they get help from the original manufacturer? Do they get advice from the Czechoslovakians, or do they forge ahead on their own? And what magazine did they use? a conversion of something existing, like a 1918 BAR mag or did they start from scratch? Thanks for that bit of unknown to me firearms history.

[Lee Enfield]

All Bren Mk3 were new receivers.

A mk3 is a stand alone receiver between MkI and Mk2.

A mk2 receiver can be lightened to be similar to a mk3, that was referred to as a Mk4.

The mk3/1 is a mk1 receiver (not a mk3 at all) which has been lightened in a similar manner to a mk3. So far as i'm aware it was an Indian innovation.

"Mark" designations changed from Roman numerals to Arabic numberals in 1944/45. This might be causing some confusion as they were used interchangeably and with some overlap.

Www.bren-gun.com has drawings which can explain the progression.

[ActionYobbo]

A mk3 is a stand alone receiver between MkI and Mk2.

so when you count brens you go 1 3 2 4 but when I count it goes 1 1m 2 3 4
How can you state that a receiver/body that was made in 1944 came before a receiver/body made in 1941?

[Joe H]

Thanks everyone for your comments and "Bren Wisdom".
I guess its all the innovations and technical twists that makes the Bren Gun so interesting

Joe

[Lee Enfield]

so when you count brens you go 1 3 2 4 but when I count it goes 1 1m 2 3 4
How can you state that a receiver/body that was made in 1944 came before a receiver/body made in 1941?

technically the production family is: 1, 1m, 2, 3, 4, L4A1, L4A2, L4A3, L4A4, L4A5, L4A6...ect.

The Mk4 and the L4 are not the same gun

how is a Mk3 chronologically before a Mk2? the answer is that it is not, but it is closer related to the MkI.

If you think of the MkI "Double Dovetail" as being the mother, then the MkI"M" and the Mk2 are different paths of emergency production, while the Mk3 is the logical descendant of the original MkI DD.

think of the Mk2 as being the stepchild of the MkI

The Mk3 takes the best features from the MkI, MkIM and the Mk2 and adds further improvement.

Bren Gun Story ect refers to the Mk3 as being based on the Mk1.

[sundance8]

All the above info is really great, but is there any evidence that either the Englis factory or the Enfield factory took MKI receivers and machined them to become MK3 receivers? This is what the discussion was about. Thanks for everybody's help and input.