CC members called Elitists

[Harlan (Deceased)]

'Tired Retired',

You didn't really just call Canadians - 'North' Americans!
(This could become an International Incident!)

And please do not forget our brother Canadians (who host this board) also served both their country and as our allies to this day.
No one doubts anyone's resolve to be an American or even North American on this board. Yes, I know we have each other's back.

[Tired Retired]

'Tired Retired',

You didn't really just call Canadians - 'North' Americans!
(This could become an International Incident!)

Harlan,

I can honestly say that I have been involved with SEVERAL international incidents with our Canadian friends. The most memorial one was while my ship was hosting one of their ship's during a visit.... well, let's just say that it took 3 days to clean up our ship's wardroom after it ended... actually I remember it got started with some dinner rolls getting thrown across the table.... I don't really remember just how it ended, but the stains from the Port Wine were the least of the problems. Of course it was never talked about, but it sure was fun! Our Canadian friends to the north are more family than friends.

Oh, and "North Americans"??? what do ya think NORAD stands for?

[painter777]

I hate popcorn !!

[Harlan (Deceased)]

Ed,

NORAD is an old close collaboration of America and Canada for the early warning of our countries from a Russian nuclear attack.

I guess you would explain it as a joint effort between Americans and 'North' Americans.

You're not getting out of this that easy Ed!

You obviously need some 'sensitivity', 'PC', and 'Stop trying to fight the Canadians every chance you get' training classes Ed. Times have changed.

Rent 'The Devil's Brigade' tomorrow -
Watch it three times and then report back to Badger for consideration of keeping your 'Really Senior Member' rank.

[jmoore]

Actually, I think the Carbine Collecters club is one of the best firearms collecting clubs around. (I'm NOT a carbine collector, more of an operator.) The mass of data accumulated by their data sheets is astounding. They just take them as they are, by and large, and what is, is. (Exceptions, well... can't be helped I suppose...)

I'm all for the elite, but they are obligated, especially in a fairly open society, to be at least polite, and hopefully, helpful enough to fire the interests of new collectors.

How you tactfully deal w/ the pests and the "entitlement" mentality types can surely be difficult, though.

Hats off to your brotherhood!

[DaveHH]

magazine "Coin Slot" for four years, I can appreciate the work and photography time involved. I was never paid a dime but did it for the pure enjoyment and experience. It was annoying when certain individuals would steal my photos, or some of the material without asking. It wasn't dollars and cents, but at least they should ask..

The Carbine Club material is probably, no, is the best research available in the world at this time. It has great value both commercially and historically. To expect someone to just hand it over because a new guy is curious, is not fair or realistic. Join the club, pay your fees and then ask.

Regarding other sources, Reisch, Harrison etc. I bought Reisch's little book, read it once and have never opened it again. It is like looking at a menu in comparison to Ruth's books. I suggest that people look on Ebay and spend the money for these two Ruth books. If you were looking for a book on how to repair your car would you use a flyer from Pep Boys or buy a genuine Brand manual? One is a token effort and the other a quality well researched manual on the whole subject. I see many people take umbrage at the opinions regarding these other books, to that I say; there's got to be a reason.

[Maniac]

Hmmm, 6 newsletters per year, chock full of updated M1 Carbine info, all for a measley $23? That's a steal! I'll be proud to be called an elitist once my own dues are processed

[Tired Retired]

In the relatively short time that I have been associated with USGI Carbines, I have noted that there are two distinct groups of people within the community. Searching the dictionary for the best words to identify them, I have chosen the nouns “hobbyist” and “collector”.

Merriam-Webster defines collector as “a person who makes a collection” meaning “an accumulation of objects gathered for study, comparison or exhibition.”

A hobbyist is defined as “someone who participates in a hobby” meaning” a pursuit outside of one’s regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation.”

I had a long 3 page sermon about hobbyists and collectors drafted out and then realized the best way to get my point across was tell a about an event in my life….

Starting as a young boy, I watched my mother do literally 30 years of research on my family’s history. It stared as a hobby in the 60’s and then became a full time lifestyle for her. She would dig for hours through public archives, travel hundred of miles to distance cemeteries, sit and interview old family members and write (and write and write) for hours. It was her life’s work.

After she died several years ago, I asked my elderly father where all of my mother’s written research was – I wanted to pass it on to her grandchildren. My father informed me that he had mailed all of it (about 75 pounds of paper) to some distance cousin in New Jersey AND that he didn’t remember how to contact her. He could remember the cost of the shipment, but not even the cousin's name. He has since died without telling who got the collection. Thirty years of my mother’s hard work, done as a gift for her future generations, and my children will never see any of it…

Hobbyists, if you didn’t collect it, it ain’t yours so stop expecting freebies.

Collectors, if you don’t share it, you will never turn hobbyists into the next generation of collectors – and then what you have collected may be lost forever.

Now, with that said, its up to each to figure out where the balance is….

In the 12 months I have been coming to several carbine forums, this is the third flare up I have seen over the Carbine Club. I still fail to understand why it happens or why people give the reactions that they do. Some people are extra defensive about it and some people are very negative towards it. I am currently not a member of the Carbine Club but will probably join it in the future. As far as the information the club has collected, it is rightfully and legally theirs. They are well with their rights to keep their info to themselves – it belongs to the club.

I want to make one suggestion in trying to find the balance I mentioned above.

The Club already openly put out the carbine data sheet for any and all people to use. Yes, it’s a freebie for the non-members, but it helps the Club because it allows a way for anyone, member or not, to send data for the Club’s benefit. It also serves to teach the newbies what to look for in carbines PLUS it makes them hungry to join the club (like a coupon for a free meal).

My simple suggestion merely adds on to that – and will also greatly benefit the club. I recommend that the Carbine Club openly publish (and take credit for) the date tables the Club has assembled. You can do that via a locked PDF form, to include the link and info on the PDF form. It’s advertisement - not a freebie because its marked as coming from the Club. It lets everyone see what kind of info is available by joining the club and since it is a locked PDF the Club’s info is forever visible on the page. It will make the newbies hungry to become collectors and encourage people to join for even more info.

Now I have had enough of the elitist name calling/defending… remember, collector or hobbyist, one day SOON we will all be a bunch of old farts sitting around in wheel chairs in the nursing home having arguments about carbines. The carbines? they will be in the hands of a bunch of young kids that may or may not appreciate them like we all do...


P.S. It was not my comment, it was not my opinion, but I sure am tired of the fighting over it. I got my asbestos underwear on, so flame away.

[Mike D]

Wow! The way this thread was started did not sound good. I sure am glad everyone kept cool! Especially given the fact that "said term" was never directed to "said group".

Anyway, I was always a bit confused on the whole serial # date thing too. Info on other military arms seems to be readily shared. When someone needs info on the forum he asks with hopes of someone with more knowledge answering.

For example:

Q - "Just gota new M1 Winchester carbine with a flat bolt marked A.I. Is it correct?"

A -"No,bolts marked A.I. were for Inland. Not sure of the marks for Win bolts, but I'll check the books when I get home"


Right or wrong, lots of info is passed without credit to the source because it is commonly known to so many. How many people have visited this site just once to get info? How many have visited to get info and became a member and contributed to this subject we all so love? Info is either first hand experience or second hand knowledge. Could be right or wrong.

I like to think that this sort of info is shared to further ones interest in the subject.

If nobody knows exact dates of manufacture then why not share what is known. A close date would do.

I'm not a CC member because I'm not that serious on that particular subject right now. I'm am currently interested in all WWII small arms, mainly U.S. If I get serious with the M1 Carbine I sure know where I'll go.

Until then, Milsurps.com is my "club". It better suits my broader interest. To offset my lack of knowledge I felt obligated to contribute.

I thought this thread could use a pic. Too many words. So heres my "War Baby". Shes a beaut' and I love her dearly.

Oh yeah, could any of you guys with "more knowledge" on the subject give a "fellow member" an "approximate" date of manufacture?

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[BrianQ]

I recommend that the Carbine Club openly publish (and take credit for) the date tables the Club has assembled.

In the 357 published Newsletters there is not a singe chart that dates serial numbers of completed carbines. So the CC has nothing of that nature to openly publish.