Longbranch TP Sniper. Comments anyone?

[ickmann]

Picked this up a few days ago. A Longbranch Trade Pattern sniper with a Lyman Alaskan scope.
It was advertised as a reproduction, and I knew it was. Nonetheless, it is a beautiful rifle and I am happy that I purchased it. Questions is, would this type of serial# alteration ever be performed at manufacture or at depot level service? I only question the forgery issue due to the care and, dare I say, skill it took to perform this type of work. If so, I wondered if it paid off? BTW if anyone owns a LB with this serial # PLEASE give me a shout

Ian

Information

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[limpetmine]

What makes you think the serial number has been messed with? There are 4 different fonts that LB used, that I have on file. This one looks OK to me.

---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

How about some wide angle shots?

[rgg_7]

Looks like the original serial number was welded over and a new one stamped. Very good job as the font and size looks correct. How is the scope marked? Ron

[limpetmine]

That 4 looks like a pretty good match to me.

[Badger]

Check the Canada - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here).

There's an "all correct" example along with an excellent additional 197 pic photo montage of a .....

1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1*(T) Long Branch TP Sniper Rifle Serial # 74L0318 (click here)
(Mfg by Long Branch Arsenal, Leaside, Ontario, Canada)
c/w matching Telescopic, Sighting C No.32, Mk.I(TP) (Trade Pattern)
Scope Serial # 4392S (Mfg by Lyman-Alaskan)

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Read the article extract by "Clive Law" and using the photo montage, compare the correctness of components and markings to the one you picked up.

The sights were marked and numbered in the commercial range and the military designation was not shown. The approximate range of serial numbers is believed to be between 4340S and 4690S. The range is based upon observation only as no records have survived. It is the author's belief that these were originally mounted on a block of No.4(T) rifles numbered from 740001 to 74L0350. Most of the scopes also display the British "Broad Arrow" Ordnance mark. This may have been applied at Lyman on their own initiative when they saw the order was for the Canadian army - however this is purely speculative. The contract between the Department of Munitions and Supply and the Lyman Gunsight Corp., did not call for any special markings to be applied.

I don't see in your first photograph, any other markings below the serial number such as a letter and number ie: H31. Is there something stamped there that isn't shown in your photo because of the angle it's take at?

Do you have more pics of the rifle you can share with us?

Hope that helps ...

Regards,
Doug

[ickmann]

rgg 7 has it. The pics of the inside show the raw weld bead. it was definitely re-numbered at some point and this took drilling out and putting a spot of weld material in the void and then re-stamping. The font is a bit different on the "7" "4" and "L". I will post full size pics in a few days, but just wanted to focus on the serial number change for now.

Ian

Badger,
I did see that wonderful example. Did get a lot of info from that article. Many thnx.

rgg 7
The scope is marked with an "in the range" serial number, but does not have it stamped on the adjustment turret base. ?? The upper mount is numbered with the rifle serial# but the lower seems to be a reproduction as it has no markings. Strange beastie this TP.

[stencollector]

Anytime one sees file or sanding marks in the area of the serial number on a LB receiver, one must suspect that the serial is non-original.

To my knowledge, that type of renumbering was not done in the Cdn ordnance branch. By the book, if a rifle was to be renumbered or a receiver salvaged and recycled, the serial number would be barred out (not obliterated) and the new serial number placed nearby. By the book, if the serial number on a weapon showed signs of tampering, the weapon would be back loaded to third line for investigation.

I have seen examples of various rifles and smgC1s with the proper barring out of the numbers as I have described above. One exception to this would be the thousand or so Cno7 receivers that had the serials scrubbed and placed in stock after being salvaged from Cno7 rifles.

Almost surprising that someone would go to all the trouble of trying to fake up a TP rifle, and not take the time to take a rotary file to the blob of weld on the inside of the wrist.

[jmoore]

ATF does take a dim view of altered serial numbers, BTW.

If you can prove that was the S/N otherwise, they might let it slide, BUT...

[ickmann]

Almost surprising that someone would go to all the trouble of trying to fake up a TP rifle, and not take the time to take a rotary file to the blob of weld on the inside of the wrist.

Guess it was easier to notch the buttstock after all that fine work and not count on anyone going inside for a look....like me.

[Warren]

Gauging from the size of the weld, it looks like the 74L was drilled out and refilled with weld the restamped. ANY place takes a dim view of monkeying with serial numbers: US, or anywhere.....
A small lot of the scopes hit the market in Canada during the late 60's and very early 70's and just disappeared into the woodwork. A lot of around 50 to 75 No. 32 scopes also appeared just after and they also disappeared. The 32TP's had the mount and there were some bases however the 32's were just the scopes. The No.32's came from Wainwright Alberta....The 32TP's came out of eastern Canada.