Warning to Australian Bayonet Collectors

[old-smithy]

should have looked before he bought not after lol

[gunner59]

Like Smith3006 I've also just joined Milsurps in part because of what seems to be going on out there with hookie 1907s.
In my case it was the one currently on sale here in New Zealand that particularly got my spider senses tingling. And it was the quality and angle of the photos of the alleged Lithgow one that made me suspicious for starters.
Only about 6 months back it seems to me that there were British made hookies without clearance holes going for around $500 - 600 tops. But in the last few months these have been going for 4 figure sums.
At the recent NZ Antique Arms auction in Wellington I saw two Brit made ones go for $900 and $950 respectively. I know we're getting closer to 2014 and so interest in anything to do with the 14-18 is going to increase but still?

Keep up the good work guys.

[smith3006]

In reply to Old Smithy's question of August 29 in regard to the square look of Australian Hook quillons I can advise that the Australians are both squarer and thicker.

I have been able to measure those still in my collection and they consist of the makers Enfield, Sanderson, Wilkinson, Chapman and Mole. In regard to the actual pattern all of the British and Australians are nearly identical. Measurements from the edge of blade (top - closest to mussle ring) to bottom of the hook are:
British between 58.0 and 58.3mm
Australian between 60.0 and 60.1mm

For the measurement from the back of the crossguard just below the hilt to the hook end are:
Briitish between 35.7 and 37.2mm
Australian between 38.8 and 39.1mm

All British edges are rounded and in particular my Wilkinson the rounding is quite pronounced. On the other hand the Lithgows (see photos previously) are quite square with minor rounding to the bottom edges only. However, until this exercise I had not been aware that at the bottom of the hook curve the thickness of the hook is greater which gives the Lithgows that chunky look. Measurements are:
British between 5.5 x 5.3mm and 5.8mm x 5.5mm
Australian between 6.7 x 5.9mm and 6.7 x 6.2mm
Regards

[smith3006]

Welcome Gunner59, sorry I didn't see your post whilst I was composing my last one.

I guess you are quoting NZ$. Unfortunately they don't make these anymore and with more and more collectors aided by the internet the old supply and demand comes into play forcing prices up. You just have to work out a value in your mind but need to watch quality as it is no good paying big dollars for a worn out or questionable piece.
Cheers

[old-smithy]

thanks smith 3006, i shall have to dig mine out and see if it has simialr dimensions, I knew it was heavier but never checked, and it coudl have been the same com,mon knowledge as he bigger celaning holes on Vickers which is actually due to chamfering the hole nt making it bigger.

[gunner59]

Looks as though this has been sold for $1,026 US! Nowhere near as high as the Lithgow but still!

In looking at the NZ example my first thoughts are that you are correct in that hook quillons do not have oil clearing holes. I checked the eight British ones in my collection and none of those have the clearing holes. It is possible that the clearing hole was added later, however, if this was the case whilst back in the factory/armoury the quillon would/should have been removed. I also see an inspection date of 1931 which would explain the clearing hole but the question remains; why wasn't the quillon removed?

I still owe Old Smithy a response regarding the actual physical differences in hook construction but it takes time for physical measurement which I seem to have precious little of at the moment. The hook on the NZ example does seem at first to be of a slightly different shape but this could be an optical illusion.

The bluing though is inconsistent. The blueing to the pommel and crossguard does not match that of the screw bolts. In fact the screw bolts are devoid of the normal machining marks and bluing. The bluing on the ricasso area blends into the fullers (on both sides). In all of my examples the bluing is a defined line that finishes before the fuller starts. I have seen this type of bluing previously on Russian reproductions.

Nice pick up Smelly Sam ...

[smith3006]

Had another look at the quillon on the NZ ebay example and it looks more like an Australian Lithgow than a British one. Definitely another reason why this one is not the real deal.

[andygottlieb]

1914 dated and in excellent condition!

http://www.honeyholemilitaria.com

[LesterH]

Whilst visiting militaria fairs in the UK. I noticed "replica" Hooked Quillion 1907 bayonets have come on to the market. They sell for about £65.00.
Sadly I do not own a hooked quillion 1907 yet. the British made versions that I have seen on sale sell for about£400+ and are usually in poor condition. In my view not worth the money. I bought a German Grave Digger knife from WW1 for £55.00. Not knowing it was a modern replica. A painfull lesson to learn! The real value is about £15.00. A good check to make is to look for Chinese snap fastenings on the scabbards etc. ( The Germans are not known to have had bayonet factories in China during WW1 &2)!

Thank you for the above posts and comments. It's dispicable when collectors get ripped off. Kind regards, Lester

[smith3006]

It appears that the year 1914 for Australian Lithgow Hook Quillon bayonets is the transition from square fullers to oval fullers. In my previous posting I showed a photo of my 1914 with square fullers. I have attached a photo from a fellow collector of his 1914 Lithgow with oval fullers. There is no doubt that this is a genuine 1914 Lithgow Hook Quillon bayonet. Sorry about the quality of photos but this is due to the lack of cotton gloves and time available and consequently I could not take it off of the wall.