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New here and in need of wisdom ;-) / No.1 Mk.III* Identification
Last edited by SM377Y MKIII*; 03-30-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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03-30-2012 03:23 PM
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Looks like a nice example of a 1945 Ishapore rebuild of an Ishapore rifle. Any markings on the right side of the butt socket, or is it scrubbed smooth?
Civilian proofed in London quite a long time ago - 1970s?
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Herr,
Willkommen Sie im Enfleld Forum, ein Kerl Enfield-Fan, dessen Familie aus Ostpreussen stammt (Warmia).
As to your Enfield, it is a nice example of a late war time rebuilt example of the No 1 MK III* type. The FR 45 indicates a Factory Repair, 45 indicating the year of the repair (1945). The FR marking is generally associated with Rifle factory Isaphore, though it is seen on some arms of WWI vintage with no association with the India. The marking on the left side of the socket indicates it went through Ishapore rebuild in 1945. The original markings on the right side are generally ground off on such a rebuild, which makes identifying the original manufacture date of the action body difficult.
The green paint was a 1944 or 1945 REME instruction for tropical use that is entirely correct for an Indian rifle. The green paint was to prevent rust on the metal surfaces that would be set against wood, which would retain moisture in a tropical environment.
The British
proof markings on the action body and barrel are post 1954 commercial proofs, required when the rifle was sold off into the trade. The proofs are for the London proof house, which generally indicates that the rifle was sold out of Woolrich arsenal. There were large sales of surplus British arms between 1956 and 1968, why which time most of the No1 MKIII rifles had been sold off. These proof marks would tend to indicate that the rifle ended its career in the UK. There were numbers of Indian arms that were used by the British army during WWII and many did end up in the UK after WWII. Generally these rifles are action dated prior to 1940 though.
Unfortunately the London proof house marks are not dated until around 1980 or after, so the exact date it was proofed is not possible to determine. At the very least this indicates that the rifle went through the London proof house for commercial proof between 1954 and 1979 I note the raised arm and sword on the nitro proof mark do seem to be a late marking, later then the ones seen in the US of A that were applied before the year 1968. That would make me suspect it was commercially proofed after 1968 and before 1979.
As it was rebuilt in 1945, and the British army left India in 1947, it is possible that this rifle was sold into the trade later. The SIA stamp on the stock indicates that it was in India post 1947, that it was in the Indian Army post 1947. Large scale surplus sales of Indian army rifles did not occur until post 1973~74, according to what I have read about the surplus trade. That makes the combination of the British commercial proofs and the SIA property mark hard to figure out, though it would match the rifle being sold into trade between 1973 and 1979.
The cut off bayonet lug and the welded sight was a modification of military arms intended for sale into Germany. These sales rules required military arms to have the sight modified to limit the range to 300 meters and any bayonet mounting to be removed. I am not sure how late these regulations existed, but I am pretty sure they were in force from around 1954 to at least 1980. I believe these rules are now relaxed for collector arms In Germany post 1994.
Perhaps some others with more knowledge can make a more detailed analysis of your rifle, but I think that is a good first brief introduction to the markings.
Perhaps when you have your answers in full you can answer some questions for me pertaining to post war Kar98K rifles in Germany.
Regards and welcome once again.
Frederick303
Last edited by Frederick303; 03-30-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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Thank You to Frederick303 For This Useful Post:
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ISA = Inspector of Small Arms at the J OD = Jaipur (or Jodphur) Ordnance Depot. You're right....... It has seen many years service but unless you show us the markings on the right side of the butt socket we'll be struggling to say from when.
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Bore looks nice and tight; she should be a shooter!
If you are looking for a new Nose-Cap, friend, Springfield Sporters in the US (website at ssporters.com, if I recall correctly) has some which have never been numbered. Last time I looked, they were asking about 11 Euros for one.
She is an Old Lady who has been to the dance and wore herself out. Then she visited this very nice doctor and now she is ready to do it all again. She IS History and you are now her guardian.
Yes, these things can be habit-forming. You should see my basement: the wreckage of 3 major Wars and a dozen Armies..... and most of it doesn't look any better than your old girl, but they all work (except for the real wrecks which ned a LOT of parts).
You have a Treasure,friend.
Welcome to the club!
.
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Thank You to smellie For This Useful Post:
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Originally Posted by
Thunderbox
... Any markings on the right side of the butt socket, or is it scrubbed smooth?...
Unfortunately the markings on the foto are from the right hand side of the butt stock
Originally Posted by
Frederick303
...
As to your Enfield, it is a nice example of a late war time rebuilt example of the No 1 MK III* type. The FR 45 indicates a Factory Repair, 45 indicating the year of the repair (1945). ... The original markings on the right side are generally ground off on such a rebuild, which makes identifying the original manufacture date of the action body difficult.
The green paint was a 1944 or 1945 REME instruction for tropical use that is entirely correct for an Indian rifle. The green paint was to prevent rust on the metal surfaces that would be set against wood, which would retain moisture in a tropical environment.
...
The cut off bayonet lug and the welded sight was a modification of military arms intended for sale into
Germany.
...
Perhaps some others with more knowledge can make a more detailed analysis of your rifle, but I think that is a good first brief introduction to the markings.
Perhaps when you have your answers in full you can answer some questions for me pertaining to post war Kar98K rifles in Germany.
Frederick303
thank you ;-)
So the FR stamp/marking indicates a rebuild or "big inspection" - a factory repair should´nt be needed for a young rifle - so I guess it´s older than 1945.
I´m familiar with the green tropical paint - my 1930 Ishapore Mk.III has exactly the same.
The german "KWKG" or 1to1 translated "WarWeaponControllLaw" 
ruined lots of good collecatables...
I´m not quite shure which year they stopped making these cuts... My 1930 Ishapore has been proofed for pressure and randmom security in 1972 in Ulm in germany - and it has its original bayo lug and free to move rear sight.
If you have question feel free to ask 
ISA = Inspector of Small Arms at the J OD = Jaipur (or Jodphur) Ordnance Depot. You're right....... It has seen many years service but unless you show us the markings on the right side of the butt socket we'll be struggling to say from when.
as I said these markings are on the right side of the butt
Originally Posted by
smellie
Bore looks nice and tight; she should be a shooter!
If you are looking for a new Nose-Cap, friend, Springfield Sporters in the US (website at ssporters.com, if I recall correctly) has some which have never been numbered. Last time I looked, they were asking about 11 Euros for one.
She is an Old Lady who has been to the dance and wore herself out. Then she visited this very nice doctor and now she is ready to do it all again. She IS History and you are now her guardian.
Yes, these things can be habit-forming. You should see my basement: the wreckage of 3 major Wars and a dozen Armies..... and most of it doesn't look any better than your old girl, but they all work (except for the real wrecks which ned a LOT of parts).
You have a Treasure,friend.
Welcome to the club!
.
I´ll check their site for an unstamped nosecap
€dit: at the moment they will not ship interantional orders -.-
That sounds beautiful and philosophical. I will be her guardian!
Thank you all for the quick response and usefull tips/ precise ID of my rifle
greeeeetz
SM377Y
PS.: what would you have paid for this rifle?
PPS.: regarding my other SMELLY: 1930 ishapore Mk.III with a magzine cutt-off / Mk.III* was introduced in 1915?! so 1930 Mk.III and a cut-off ??? anything special?
Last edited by SM377Y MKIII*; 03-31-2012 at 06:38 AM.
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Are there any markings on the right hand side of the steel section which is exposed when you lift up the bolt handle?
This part is the "butt socket" or "wrist" of the action, and is where the original manufacture stamps would have been located.
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Oh ok
Just call it wrist so I exactly know which part you mean ;-)
I didn't see any markings or stamps on the right hand side...
Perhaps I can find some signs of scrubbed down stamps in really bright light.
I remember a CSI method for scrubbed serial numbers on guns - they use some kind of acid ...
The metal is compressed underneath a stamp, even when scrubbed down it's visible....
But this would be a hell of a job and could ruin the finish of the rifle ....
Greeeetz
SM377Y
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SM377YMIII*
A quick question for you on this “bayonet removal / limiting the sights to 300 meters” issue. I am based in the states but over the years have known a number of chaps who were the sons of former WWII Wehrmacht soldiers and some former members of the Wehrmacht as well. I have been told that when the armies of Germany dissolved in April~May of 1945, a significant number of soldiers did not turn in their weapons but buried them or otherwise hid them. I was told this most prevalent in the southern sectors where there was more open space and more places where rifles and pistols could be hidden without being under the water table or causing possible death sentences for those on whose land the weapons might be found. All the stories I heard of this were from Ostmark, Bayen, the only north German account being in the Harz Mountains (where the 11th army sort of dissolved in late April). Being in Germany have you heard of any such stories anywhere else you might have traveled?
Second when I asked about the milled off bayonet lugs and blocked 300 M sights on Kar98K rifles. What I was told was that this was imposed on the Germans by the allies between 1954 and 1958. Supposedly when the Germans were first allowed to own weapons again in 1954~1955 only sporting arms were allowed. When the Germans started pulling out the hidden Kar98K rifles, the solution was to allow them to keep them if the lugs were removed and the sights pinned to 300 meters. Does that sound correct? I do seem to recall reading something that might relate to this in the 1958 arms act, which does make ownership of hunting arms rather easy if one has a hunting license.
Lastly a question on the numbers of Kar98K rifles in close to original condition in Germany. Here what I have heard is rather complex to convey as a single abstraction, but I will attempt it. I was told by more than few fellows who were sons of former members of the Wehrmacht that there was sort of a dichotomy in attitudes of the veterans. There were many who at the end of the war, having gone through the horror of it all wanted nothing to do with any sort of past association with the former war weapons. There was also a group that after the shock of the defeat gradually became nostalgic, (for lack of a better word) at their past service in the 1960s when West Germany was going though its economic miracle. Many of these folks I gather came from the long standing “rifle culture” of Germany. The Kar 98K being the rifle of their youth, I was told there are surprising numbers of them in Germany, in original shape in the hands of families with that tradition as well as other small arms that would not be authorized. I was also told that prior to the 1974 arms control act, that the regulations and registration of rifles was not that tight, in many states the initial purchase records were not maintained. In fact there was a registration requirement in the 1974 arms control act becasue of this. This law was widely ignored, most especially with numbers of former military rifles that might not be in quite legal format (no pinned sights and with full bayonet lugs). Does this sound correct? Can you elaborate on this and the attitudes of the 1940s through 1970s generation and the degree to which the former solders had a fondness for the Kar98K? Just curious how it is seen back in Germany.
If this is an impolite topic, pardon me. Here is the US any veteran of the conflict is treated with great respect. Said another way, the war has receded to history, there are no topics regarding it that are off limits here in the US.
Thanks in advance
Frederick303
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Deceased January 15th, 2016
Originally Posted by
Frederick303
The proofs are for the London proof house, which generally indicates that the rifle was sold out of Woolrich arsenal.
I do not agree because the civilian proof was not required when the Government sold the rifles off. As proof [sic] of this, if that were the case then ALL British ex-military arms would have civilian Proof and they patently do not.
Where civilian Proof is done in the UK tends to be where the first dealer who needs to have the gun Proofed is located. For example my No.5 was first Proofed by a dealer in Surrey, for sale to me, and so was Proofed in London. My No.4 on the other hand came from a Birmingham dealer and so has Birmingham Proof. I could list all my guns an where they were they were first proofed (in the cases that I know) but you get the idea.
BTW, I don't recall Woolwich being a storage depot anyway but rather a manufacturing site.
Last edited by Beerhunter; 03-31-2012 at 12:57 PM.
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