Missing the old Greek HXP ball ammo? More seems to have been found.

[togor]

Say what one will about the wartime Winchester, but it groups better out of my silly 2 groove barrel than boat tailed Prvi.

Suffice it to say the .303 rifle, as a weapons system, had many issues in its life.

[Alan de Enfield]

Say what one will about the wartime Winchester, but it groups better out of my silly 2 groove barrel than boat tailed Prvi.

But you are comparing apples with oranges (MK7 vs Mk8z)

[togor]

But you are comparing apples with oranges (MK7 vs Mk8z)

It's all fruit of the same tree. I enjoy the challenge of coaxing good groups out of these rifles, even as I can view their quirks without sentimentality.

[Bindi2]

The tree you are looking at is a grafted one producing two totally different fruits.

[Alan de Enfield]

I enjoy the challenge of coaxing good groups out of these rifles, even as I can view their quirks without sentimentality.

My point was that you are trying to use something which was not designed for use in the Lee Enfield Rifle.

The Mk7 has not only a longer parallel area to 'get a grip' on the rifling, but has an open flat bottom to give more easily sufficient up-set to engage into the rifling.

The Mk8 was designed for 'long distance' machine gun use, has an aerodynamic shape giving a very short parallel area, but also has a closed base which will not easily up-set. the use of NC propellant in a barrel that has fired cordite also produces poor accuracy.
These features are the reason that the documents of the time state :

6. The following instructions regarding the use of .303-in ammunition have been issued to users and are governed by stocks and types of ammunition and weapons in current use:-

(a) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in M.G. Bns.

(i)Mk.8z only will be used for overhead firing.
(ii) Mixed belts, i.e. Ball, Tracer, A.P., etc., will NOT be used.
(iii) Any barrel which has fired Cordite ammunition will NOT be used for N.C.; barrels will be stamped “7” on the trunnion block and returned to R.A.O.C. through normal channels.
(iv) Barrel life for N.C. will be assessed by unit armourers using the appropriate gauges.

(b) .303 in. Vickers M.G.s in A.F.V.s.

Here the overhead fire problem is not considered; the range is usually less than is the case with ground M.G.s. tracer ammunition is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not envisaged. Special mixed belts of Mk.8z and Tracer are provided in boxes clearly marked “For use in A.F.V.s only”. The reduced life of the barrels is accepted.

(c) Light M.G.s.

Cordite ammunition normally will be used. N.C. ammunition, however, gives a relatively small flash at night and if the Bren is being used for a special purpose, e.g., on a patrol, its use is permitted.

(d) Rifles.

N.C. ammunition will not be used in rifles except in such circumstances as quoted in para. “(c)”
above, if necessity should arise.

7. Belt packed S.A.A. for M.G.s is packed in boxes which are clearly marked with labels or stenciling indicating its proper use. It will never be de-belted and used for practice purposes in L.M.G.s or rifles.





Even poor quality Mk7 will perform better than good quality Mk8z

(Apologies for the poor quality of the bullet sectioning - I only had a hammer and a blunt hacksaw with a bent blade.)

[Sapper740]

My experience with the current batch of HXP, all 1971 dated and from the same bandolier: I shot several 100 yard 5 shot groups through 3 different rifles yesterday, a Fulton Regulated BSA No.1 Mk III, a Home Guard Ross MkIII, and a Long Branch to see how accurate the ammunition was and to check velocities. Temperature was 83 F., humidity 63%, and elevation 0f 594' asl. Wind was 7-8 mph from 12 o'clock.

Through the BSA 5 shots gave an average velocity of 2484.9 fps, std dev 9.9 and 3 MOA.
Through the Long Branch 5 shots gave an average velocity of 2505 fps std dev 39.5! (more on this later) and 4 MOA caused by the old ammunition, I believe.
Through the Ross 7 shots gave an average velocity of 2564.8 fps and a std dev of 16.6 and 2 MOA.

Higher velocities were expected through the Ross's 30 1/2" barrel but the average velocity from the the other rifle's barrels was higher than expected.

These are all rifles that regularly shoot 1 to 1 1/2 MOA with handloads.

With the Long Branch the extreme spread of the ammunition's velocities was 105.2 fps and a pierced, flattened primer was among the cases, perhaps caused by excessive pressure? I've fired the Long Branch hundreds of times without this problem previously. The individual velocities of the 5 shots were:

2522.5
2520.1
2561.8
2463.8
2456.6

My concern is that the old ammo is creating pressure excursions from deteriorating powder possibly? Through the decades of shooting .303 British ammunition and rifles I've experience both incipient and actual head seperations from handloads but never a pierced primer. Have a look at the pictures and let me know what you think.

[Bindi2]

Sapper740
Handloads are different beasts to Milsurp. No comparison possible.
The pierced primer looks to me as though the primer has backed out been pierced by a slightly long firing pin before being pushed back by the case moving back onto the bolthead.
A combination of things giving the appearance of an overload. The Military moved the ammo on after a set time if not used. You don't know how well it was stored after leaving the Military.
Check your head space and measure the HXP rim thickness. Max on one and Min on the other could be all the problem.

[togor]

I too shot some of the HXP recently, along with some downloaded Prvi with 174 BTFMJs swapped for 180 FBSP, and some 1941 Winchester.

No pierced primers. All of the rims were right at .060", some Win '41 primers leaked, and the Win brass does bulge just north of the case web, where the Prvi and HXP do not.

I will examine the HXP more carefully before running it in the very collectible, all-original (T).

Edit: I attribute the '41 Win primer leakage to poor sealing, possibly a result of the 4 stab crimping process. I believe that those cases could be reprimed and they would not leak, but they are still prone to bulging in front of the web and look to be single use. The bullets are good however and that is the toughest component to acquire.

[Bindi2]

Winchester brass is made to SAAMI specs not to the British Military specs. ( metal and size)

[Alan de Enfield]

The Military moved the ammo on after a set time if not used. You don't know how well it was stored after leaving the Military.

Indeed, the British military withdrew all ammunition from 'front line use' once it reached 10 years old. After 10 years (stored on the tropics) or 15 years (stored in temperate climates) it could / did become inconsistent - particularly the primers - and it was relegated to 'practice use only' on the ranges.

You (we) are now using 50+ year old ammunition and wonder why it, smokes a bit, pierces the odd primer, splits the odd case etc etc.

When using old milsurp ammunition - set yourself up with low expectations and you will not then be dissapointed.