That proof thing, again

[Alan de Enfield]

Here we go again, weak actions, exploding bolts etc. etc.


Use what the Rifle is designed / proofed for and you wont have any problems. If its a 303 use Mk7 type ammo or load to Mk7 specifications. Its been proofed to that.
If its a 7.62 then use standard mil spec 7.62 or load to that specification. Its been proofed to that.

If PL has 50 years of experience (and 10s of thousands Enfield Rifles) under his belt and has never seen / heard of a failure (except the two that were fired without bolt heads) I reckon its "fit for purpose".

If you want, you can break anything - put a V8 engine in a Mini and the next weakest link in the 'chain' (gearbox ?) will blow up.

If you want 50 cal performance, buy a 50 cal !!!!

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Alfred]

Here we go again, weak actions, exploding bolts etc. etc.


Use what the Rifle is designed / proofed for and you wont have any problems. If its a 303 use Mk7 type ammo or load to Mk7 specifications. Its been proofed to that.
If its a 7.62 then use standard mil spec 7.62 or load to that specification. Its been proofed to that.

If PL has 50 years of experience (and 10s of thousands Enfield Rifles) under his belt and has never seen / heard of a failure (except the two that were fired without bolt heads) I reckon its "fit for purpose".

A member of a sister site had just such a bolt head failure with a fresh from the wrap FTR'ed No.4 not so long ago. I remember he got a bit hot under the collar at blyth dismissals and the term "catastrophic failure" being tossed around. Had the rifle not be test fired remotely rather than from the shoulder things might not have gone so well.
Mr Laidler was not present when that rifle lost its bolt head. I expect that many action failures go unreported especially if they happened in combat where the victim might well die from exsanguination or shock without prompt aid or spend years in a prison camp should he survive.
The record of LE action failures in the Canadian house of commons debates includes a comment on these incidents having never been reported in the news papers.
Aside from use as a Sniper rifle I've seen no mention of converted No.4 rifles being used in combat. From the state of some Indian rifles I've seen I suspect that many 2A ended up being chopped up for parts long ago, with the best examples surviving to end up pulling light duty or as trainers.

As for Proof tested to 7.62 specs some 7.62 ammunition max deviation including M118 LR special ball exceeds the maximum allowable pressure set by the MOD for 7.62 ball and is very close to proof test pressures used by the MOD.

If you want, you can break anything - put a V8 engine in a Mini and the next weakest link in the 'chain' (gearbox ?) will blow up.

If you want 50 cal performance, buy a 50 cal !!!!

The point is that the gentleman whose manhood almost ended up as a medical curiousity exhibit in a jar somewhere would have profited by advice on what pressure levels would be safe for his rifle.

If I owned the finest J P Sauer Mauser sporting rifle of the 1930's I'd baby it with loads of less than maximum pressures.
I very nearly bought one of these dirt cheap some years ago, for 1/10 its present value. It was in an odd caliber or I'd have snatched it up, should have anyway. The rifle looked so modern that I'd thought it was a recent import, I later found it was a very old rifle with a stock especially designed to appeal to US shooters.
Even a rifle in such great condition as that one, and of proven strength and safety, deserved to be fed ammunition that would not cause excessive stress or wear.

There are early M98 style Mauser sporting rifles that were not intended for use with the higher pressure 7.92X57 ammunition thats available today. They may handle the hottest loads, and then again they might not.
The action type actually appeared in sporter form as early as 1896 with minor differences in contruction of the cocking piece and firing pin.

Just because a cartridge will fit the chamber is no gaurantee that the action was intended to use the hottest available loadings of that cartridge.
Recently I was discussing German LMG cartridges and their use in the K98. Years ago I got hold of some really jacked up AP rounds that had a muzzle blast so harsh I thought my Persian Mauser Carbine had exploded.
From a site on the German MGs I found that this was a special high velocity heavy bullet long range AP round that was loaded to much higher pressures than would be safe for the Mauser infantry rifle. The round was discontinued early in WW2 due to shortage of Tungsten for its extra heavy core so its seldom encountered. Problems might arise if a Mauser owner assumed that because later AP ammo for LMG use is considered safe in the rifles that all such LMG ammo is safe in the rifles.

A couple of months back I looked over a thread on another forum in which a young shooter described the appearance of fired cases from his No.1 rifle with cut off plate slot.
The base was cocked at an angle and cases cracked or separated on first firing.
The rifle looked normal at casual inspection.
It never occured to me at the time but I now suspect that his receiver was already cracked either below or above the cut off slot. Though there are other possibilities. In any event I'd consider that rifle unsafe to fire.

If an SMLE receiver can be cracked by firing a rain wet ball cartridge on the range, as a recently posted warning stated plainly enough, then its pretty obvious that the safety margin of the receivers had been compromised in some way that didn't show up in proof testing.

Standard 7.62 NATO ball is not a house afire hot load, but some other 7.62 NATO ammunition is loaded to pressures in excess of those of the MkVIIIZ already known to be unwise for extended use in the No.4 rifles and possibly dangerous in the SMLE.
Use of MkVIIIZ in the Infantry rifles was a case of emergency use only when ammo was in short supply. I don't think that sort of warning should go unheeded.

I'd be interested to know the pressure level of the .30-40 IMP loads that broke P O Ackley's SMLE action. The 30-40 Imp was designed to give .308 level ballistics from the rimmed cartridge and actions suited to rimmed cartridges.

[Amatikulu]

Why are we here?

This site is designed to encourage the open exchange of information amongst the general military surplus collector community, thereby helping all of our members to better enjoy their chosen hobby.

This thread started well with an exchange of information.

This thread is now deteriorating with too much repetition of the same old mantras that seem to have no end - and it's not helping me to enjoy my chosen hobby

Use the ammunition that your rifle is proofed for - inspect your rifles and maintain them - above all else enjoy them whether you simply look at them of take them out and shoot them.

I don't want to see another rebuttal to this post.

If you haven't got any new information to exchange then simply don't post - move on and make a post in which you share something new.....