Question about possible Japanese Type 38 Carbine

[Skippy]

Hmmm... not a very usefull article, this is the only paragraph about these carbines:

"About 1956 Bangkok Arsenal began converting 6.5mm Arisakas to a very handy
carbine for police use. This is really one nice light rifle . It is configured to look
like the M1 carbine, but the cartridge is much better. It has a Charkra Crest and using the Siamese systems of numbers for serial number."

It makes no mention of what the conversion process entailed besides mentioning that they were cut into carbines that resemble the m1.

Actually, the rifle pictured at the bottom doesn't really look like the police Type 91, notice how the front of the stock is cut flush, and not left with the little knob a-la M1 carbine. I'd be interested to find out where the author is getting his information, it's funny how he calls the bottom rifle a police carbine with Thai crest and numbers, but fails to show either. Also, the picture near the bottom in which the crest is visible is an army issue rifle, NOT a police issue.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, only that the author of that article is almost uslessly vague (at least where the police carbines are concerned), and that the rifle pictured and labled "Thai Arisaka police carbine" doesn't look the way I'd expect a Police issue carbine to.

Compare these two photos, the top is the one the author posted, and the bottom is an actual police issue carbine next to an M1 carbine:





Look at the difference between the nose of the stock, the lack of a dished out portion for the bolt, the straight bolt, and the length of the barrel.

I'm not sure if the rifles converted for army issue were done in that fashion, but I'd say it's most definatly NOT police issue.

[Skippy]

A-Ha!
I just went over a bit of the hard copy I have regarding these rifles, the one pictured in that article, as well as the one you posted earlier, are indeed Royal Thai Army issue Type 91 carbines.

Features on the army issue include the bent bolt, the dished out stock, and the flush cut stock nose. Also, the army carbines should have the Japanese numbers and codes completely removed, as you said yours has.
Also, if you check out the rear sight ladder on your army carbine, you'll notice that the original ladder has been cut into three sections, the middle one thrown away, and the top and bottom two welded together to form a shorter rear sight ladder. Th police issue carbines retain the original Japanese full-length ladder.

If you know the author of that article, you might ask him to correct his information.

[Skippy]

ANother thing I should mention. THe author of that article claims that Thia carbines were first converted "around 1956". Well, Type 91 comes from the Buddhist calendar year of 2491, which translates to our year 1948.......

[riceone]

I sent the site with the picture not for the information but to show the picture of a rifle just like mine. One thing I do know you can never be certain about anything when it comes to rifles out of the orient. riceone.

[Ronin 48]

Frank Allan, Palm Coast, FL, is the "guru" on Siamese weapons, aauthor of the booik on Siamese rifles and carbines and is writing the T-38 book. Feel sure any 38 varient will be included.

The upper photo is the so called Siamese "police" carbine. Some years back I had correspondence with a French rifle magazine writer on this subject and he had a letter/number designation for the "police" carbine. He said they were also issued to the Army. No idea on the source of his information. The center section of the rear sight on the "police" carbine has been removed and top welded to the bottom.

Severeal years ago I was invited to go through a large shipping crate of Arisakas in the basement of Springfield Sporters, among the lot were 50 or so of the "police" carbines, all with standard 38 bolts, not bent and no Siaamese numbers. Price was $50 each.

On the bottom photo, have never encountered such a rifle. Suggest you bounce this off Frank, the_allans_fela@yahoo.com.


so

[Skippy]

My information is coming from Frank Allen, he'll repeat everything I've said in my last few posts, as well as what I'm about to say.

Ronin, If you're referring to the pictures I posted above you've got it backwards. The top one labled "6.5mm Jap" is an ARMY ISSUE carbine, as is the one riceone posted above, notice the circular sun-like army stamp (It's actually a flaming throwing ring, like the one Xena Warrior Princess used), the bottom one, pictured with the M1 carbine is POLICE ISSUE, the stamp being quite different from the circular army one. It is the ARMY ISSUE carbines that have the altered rear sight.

[Skippy]

Maybe this will help clairify what I've been saying, I dont have any photos which aren't copyrighted, so I made this "artists interpretation" in photoshop:

A "chakra" is what we'd call an "emblem".



The chakra on the left is what is stamped on the carbines which were issued to the Royal Thai Police, those squiggley lines are actually ornate drawings on the round shield with the katana behind it.

The chakra on the right is what is stamped on carbines which were issued to the Royal Thai Army, it's supposed to be a circular throwing disc with eight flaming blades. THis is the traditional emblem of the Siamese/Thai army.

[Francis C. Allan]

Recently several Type 91s have surfaced that have police crest as indicated in another reply. These seem to have serial numbers in Thai number characters that are under 1,000, although I am aware of only five being reported. These have the police crest as noted in another reply. These have the "91" Thai number characters on the receiver top. That is the key to the designation and is ALL we can know about its designation.

We believe that the Type 91 designation was maintained for the Army version that has the army crest on the breech and just the serial number. However, this is just supposition as no record of the production/fabrication has been found in Thailand. The range of the Army carbine serial numbers reported or observed is 1139 - 2255.

I hope that this little bit of additional information is of interest. This is my first posting on this forum.

Frank Allan

[Skippy]

Welcome to the forum, it'll be great to get your knowledge floating around in here.