Death of the Red Baron

[25-5]

Battlefields of any size have historically been looted by the locals for any bits and pieces, particularly metal. Done for some value and doubtfully historical.

[Gil Boyd]

In between courses on Christmas day.....................found this photo on Flea Bay:
7x5 Gloss Photo ww2DC9 World War 1 WW1 Misc Richthofen Guns | eBay

If you zoom in, the two officers inspecting what purport to be the Baron's guns from his downed aircraft, look like Australian cap badges.
Anybody from down under confirm that?

[browningautorifle]

It would make sense as apparently it wend down right in an Aussie unit.

[Gil Boyd]

Merry Christmas Jim,
I meant the right hand officer's collar dog not cap badge, it has the sun burst badge which they wore

[gsimmons]

I think you're right, Gil. It does look like an Aussie collar dog.

[Gil Boyd]

Jim,
Do have any WW1 pictures of Aussie Officers in that garb with the wedge caps too, or are they Aussie pilots (attached) to the RFC curious after the Baron landed?

[browningautorifle]

They are Aussies because of the collar of the right one and you can see the hat badge of the left one. They do look like pilots because they're wearing breeches, no? Other things, wrist watches, which had only started then and would be more an upper class thing, they're clean...

No Gil, I'm afraid I have no pics of an Aussie pilot of the time.

Found another link for you Gil...

https://www.awm.gov.au/blog/2008/02/...e-red-baron-2/

[lboos]

This thread is the most interesting one I've seen in years, so much History, and you guys seem to know it all, great videos and comments.....don't stop, I cant get enough .

[Gil Boyd]

It clearly looks like a free for all on his landed plane by several groups from differing countries, which may also account for the spread of this famous pilots aircraft bits around the globe today.
The twin Spandau's being inspected by the two "Aussie" officers are clearly the prize of the haul.
When I found out his medals were in America, and his engine is in London, one has to look closely at all the facets of those in the family and those present on the day he landed, to fully understand why such artefacts were not requested by the Germans after the war?
A real shame this great heroes story couldn't be put to bed once and for all by DNA on the round if it ever was truly recovered from his in tact body!!!

I do see however, that parties were very interested to establish how he met his untimely end so simply, by one alleged bullet. This one bullet presumably attributed to an Australian gunner on the ground, and not from another aircraft apparently did an amazing job of travelling around around the cockpit. A check of his body the next morning found shrapnel in various places in his face, but a report states he was shot through the cheek, chin, heart and legs by this one bullet.
I have in my past placed sighting rods through gunshot wounds, and I would say that this damage by a singular round would have taxed the most accomplished coroner. So I believe his cockpit area was struck by by one or more rounds, which fragmented and the shrapnel actually did the damage.
There is no excusing the damage that is caused by a singular .303 round striking the human body, and I believe, seeing the photograph of his "in tact" face, that it is highly unlikely that a round went through his chin and face, without any tell tale sign of significant damage as it entered or exited.

Would love to look at this case in detail, but with so much recorded evidence spread to the four winds, I don't think we will ever get to the real evidence of who struck his aircraft that day. The landing by him which was a real accomplishment in itself before he died, makes me more certain shrapnel did the damage, probably severing major arteries in his heart and lungs, fragmenting upwards as it travelled through the body.
Just my view!

[Harlan (Deceased)]

The Germans were so 'beaten up' by the Treaty of Versailles after WWI ended they were afraid to ask for anything. The terms of the treaty were so awful it led to WWII and helped Hitler gain his political appeal when he was trying to gain power. Hitler blew off many of the restrictions in the treaty and it made him look good to many Germans. The treaty made Germany responsible for WWI and it even charged Germany with the price of weapons the allies lost... The treaty even came up the life worth of every allied soldier that was lost during WWI, and charged Germany a fee for their lives! The Great Depression was terrible for all nations but Germany was worse off of all. They were still paying for WWI and the country was completely broke with the inflation created. It literally took a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread. Money became so inflated that they started to only print one side of most currency because the price of making and printing money was too high. It's easy to see why so many Germans backed Hitler when he began to ignore conditions that had been placed on the German people.

The treaty was so insane that Woodrow Wilson sailed to France and tried to talk the allied countries out of the terrible terms..... He could see the long term ramifications.
The treaty was written up after WWI ended. Many German soldiers thought Germany ended the war in a stalemate, or concession and only wanted the insanity of WWI to end so they could go back to their families. When writing up the Treaty of Versailles the allied countries took their time and came up with unbelievable punishments and restrictions on Germany. France was particularly harsh, but they had some reasons to hate the Germans from past confrontations. By the time the conditions of the treaty were known to Germany, MANY Germans wanted to just go back to war, but most all of the soldiers had been back home with their families for some time, and wanted to remain civilians after what they experienced in WWI. (Most allied soldiers felt the same) Germany was also so broken, there was no way for them to finance a new military anyway. Many Germans thought the conditions were so ridiculous they would be re-negotiated or not enforced or something, but after 15-20 years of living life under the restrictions and retributions of the treaty, most German people had had enough! It's easy to see and understand why so many Germans decided to back Hitler when he was running for elections and giving speeches saying that he would strike down the restrictions if he were in office. Woodrow Wilson was right and he knew that eventually the ridiculous restrictions wouldn't be able to be enforced. After Germany got behind Hitler they worked their butts off to build up their military. By the beginning of WWII Germany had the largest and most advanced air force in the world.

Imagine your country having such insanely harsh restrictions on it. It took twenty years of living under the Treaty of Versailles punishments from WWI that most German people had had enough!! Many Germans thought Hitler was goofy with his 'Nazi' stuff but he displayed to the German people that he had the moxy to show the world that Germany wasn't taking it anymore.

PS - Germany didn't start WWI to begin with. There was so much that happened back then to get the world into war it would take hours (and books) to explain it all. Simply put, besides frictions between many nations, there hadn't been any wars for a long time and a lot of nations missed the 'honor' of past wars. They didn't comprehend how much insane destruction a modern war would be, and they took the waging of war as a possible solution to end old disagreements between nations. By the time WWI began, technology and machines had advanced so far that you could no longer place one side against another side and make charges on horses, and also retain the honor and chivilry of past wars. Their was no longer the 'Code of Honor' that was around since the days of knights squaring off against each other with spectators watching.

The Red Baron was thought to carry on some of the honor and civilry, but that's not completely true. He learned to sneak up on enemy aircraft with the sun at his back and almost get into the cockpit of the opposing aircraft before he opened up on it. He used machinery and tactics to sneak up and destroy enemy aircraft -- He did not challenge enemy aircraft to battle him in an even fight of skill.

Sorry for rambling. There is just SO much to know, and there are so many experts here who've taught me so many things that it's incredible. That's why I love this site so much! SUPER smart and knowledgeable members who are happy to help others and don't make them feel 'stupid' for asking a question.

I better get off this subject/thread before Doug (Badger) shoots ME down.

~ Harlan