Proof tests

[Jim K]

A poster on another site is claiming (if I understand correctly) that the U.S. Army proof tested each and every bringback Japanese rifle, not only those taken from depots but those captured in battle as well. He says that there was a proof certificate issued and a proof mark with the letters "VJ" stamped in the barrel. He further says that Japanese rifles are dangerous and that ones without that U.S. Army proof should not be fired as they may blow up.

I have, shall we say, reservations about all that, as I knew dozens of vets who brought back Japanese rifles and never heard of such a thing, nor have I ever seen it mentioned in any books, or on this or any other gun forum. I have never seen such a proof mark or such a proof certificate. The poster seems serious and claims to have all kinds of evidence, but had not posted any as of the last time I checked.

But even though I am skeptical, I am always willing to be "eddykated". So I would appreciate any info on what must have been a massive program, involving hundreds of thousands of military personnel, yet seems to have been totally invisible.

Thanks, Jim

Information

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[Dave]

Sounds unlikey to me, The army had more importent things to do. According to Phil Sharpe, Capt in ordanence' in Europe, the so-called "capture papers/permission to take back a gun" was not that at all but only meant that the item had no inteligence value and the soldier could have it. What about the far east? I really do not know.

[doncb]

Thats just plain nonsense. don b in fl.

[Jim K]

I thought so, but I have been wrong myself and always hate to say that someone if full of it without some checking.

I think that no area of collecting generates more absolute nonsense than Japanese weapons, nor is that new. A lot of it dates back to WWII, when even GIs believed that the ".25 Jap" was no better than a kid's .22, that Japanese couldn't shoot because their eyes slanted, and that their aircraft were made of tinfoil and string.

One of the better stories was from a vet who claimed to have captured his Arisaka in hand-to-hand combat, until someone told him the ground "mum" meant a surrendered rifle.

He replied that the rifle had the "mum" when he brought it home, but that Harry Truman personally kept track of all captured rifles and didn't want to offend the Japanese emperor, so the FBI picked rifle up on Truman's orders and when they returned it the crest had been ground off. But he clearly remembered how he wrested the rifle "right out of the hands of a Jap general, right there on Guadaloop or wherever."

Jim

[Johnny Peppers]

I'm not sure what intelligence value a pistol, much less a holster, would have, but this document seems to indicate the named Captain has the right to keep the pistol and holster, or he can legally mail it home.

[Jim K]

That one was apparently made up at the unit level, and I have seen several like that from the Pacific. Apparently things were more organized in the ETO, as the "capture papers" from that theater are almost always printed forms with the name and details typed or hand-written.

I doubt much use was made of captured weapons for intelligence purposes. I suppose an analysis of the serial numbers and factory marking would provide some information as to production capability, but by 1943 or so, I would hope even "military intelligence" would know what a K.98k or a Type 99 looked like.

I do know that one division commander in the ETO banned possession of captured handguns by his men, since almost as many were accidentally shooting themselves or each other with unfamiliar captured guns as were combat casualties.

Jim

[Johnny Peppers]

As far as gathering intelligence, I don't believe I have ever seen one of the certificates dated other than post WWII.

[Dave]

So the officer "examinded the items". Examinded for what? Commen items would have no intelligence value and I'm sure the oficer, and others, know they were commen items. They were still gathering intelligence after the war was over. The only Maused m-G40 in the us, as far as I know is still in Army hands at Aderdeen. A copy of the reg qouted would be helpfull. In the meantime I will believe what Phil Sharp said, he was there and he was with wepons intellignce (or some such unit). All the pet theories you come up with will not convince me. One question; pistols could be mailed to the US?

[Johnny Peppers]

The officer probably examined the items to be sure they complied with the regulations quoted on the form.
It states pretty plainly on the forms from both Europe and the Pacific that the items could be mailed home.

[Alfred]

Could have been to prevent troops from carrying away stolen civilian owned hunting rifles or personal handguns not connected to the military, even any such still remained after wartime confiscations.
I have heard of a civilian police revolver being seized from a trooper. Of course they had to put the civilian cops back on the streets, some military police as well, in Germany at least.

My Nieghbor told of all weapons found in towns he went through laid out in the street and run over by tanks. He tried to snag a nice engraved Drilling but his officer made him throw it back in the street.