Should I buy Eddystone 1917

[Aragorn243]

I'm a casual collector of milsurplus having half a dozen rifles from various nationalities but am basically a novice at it. For the most part, I've sought inexpensive pieces that are in good functional shape and just need a bit of TLC to clean them up etc.

I've been making some calls to various gun shops in the area to see what they have and found a shop that has a pair of Carcanos that I decided to check out.

Beside the Carcano was an Eddystone 1917 that at first I ignored but decided to take a gander at the price, $299.00. That got my attention but as I don't know a tremendous amount about them I went home and researched them quite a bit last evening.

The receiver was made in September of 1918. It has been rebarreled with a Johnson barrel with no date stamp. The stock is what I believe to be a Remington as it is stamped with an "R" on the tip of the stock. That is the only stock marking I can find and I looked it over pretty well. Only problem is that whoever had it before loaded the stock with some sort of reddish shellac that could very well hide any faint markings.

The bolt is a mix of a Remington body with some Eddystone parts. The safety works, the trigger has a nice even pull. The bolt however is stiff to pull back once the trigger has been fired. There are a few flat spots worn onto it that seem odd to me and the side portion which slides through the groove and can be seen looking at it's right side is scored pretty heavily.

The overall finish of the metal doesn't look too bad. It's there, very dull parkerized blue look. The ordnance bomb on the left side of the receiver is only 2/3's there.

The bore doesn't look that great but the rifleing is there and it's hard to tell if it's just overly dirty or just dull. They ran a wire brush and a patch through it a few times after I asked about it and the bore has a bit of shine to it but looks scratchy and the two counter guys said they "think" they can see some minor pitting toward the center of the barrel. My eyes didn't really know what to look for.

Having priced these last night, I believe $300 is a bit on the cheap side for one of these even in poor condition but I would prefer a rifle that I can shoot and do so safely. They cannot gage the bore. Their opinion is that it is functional but they admitted they really know very little about it.

Being that it is a late 1918 rifle, the receiver hardness or brittleness shouldn't be an issue from what I've read but again, not sure. That it is a military rebarrel would also seem to indicate that the receiver is not cracked but again, I don't know their proceedure for this if it was.

So my goals for this are to one, remove the shellac mess that is on it, clean the stock up nicely and probably linseed oil it and to shoot it occasionally. Not competitively but more to just know that it works and is relatively accurate. I think the stock will clean up OK, it's in fairly decent shape with a few of the usual dings and gouges. I can't tell if it's been sanded down already but that possibility exists as the brass pins are longer than the wood is wide. Cleaning the bore and action is also a definate. It is very dry now and that was one of the reasons why the bolt may not be cycling smoothly according to the sales guy.

The big red flag is that this rifle has been in their store for almost two years now. It had been $400 up until a few weeks ago when they reduced all their milsurps that have been there for a while. So it's like I'm missing something with it that all the other guys that go through that place aren't. It's a pretty heavily traveled gun/sportsman shop.

Any opinions on the condition/value etc would be greatly appreciated. As my last milsurp purchases were a British 303 and a Swedish Mauser from Woolworths for less than $100 each and a Mosin Nagant for $89 two weeks ago, this is a pretty big step up in price for me. I'm not intending to resell the rifle so profit is not an issue but I don't want to lose money on it either with a bad purchase and a rifle I have no chance of using.

Information

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[45B20]

Aragorn

A shootable M1917 for $300, yes buy it. It may not be perfect but is worth ever bit of $300. No worries as to strength of receiver steel. The odds of you getting one with a cracked receiver are so remote, at that price I would not worry about it. Headspace might be a small problem, M1917’s usually have generous headspace, but not enough to worry about. If the bore is NRA Good or better (and it sounds as if it is) and the stock is sound you should be already on your way.

Before you buy,, look the stock over closely, a replacement will run the price up. If you are refinishing the wood, I would suggest turpentine and real Tung Oil,, 50/50 for first coat.

45B20

[Aragorn243]

The stock seems to be sound just covered with that shellac. Are you suggesting I check it closely for soundness or for not being original (sanded, etc).

[45B20]

In this case, I would be much more worried about cracks.

45B20

[Chuckindenver]

Being that it is a late 1918 rifle, the receiver hardness or brittleness shouldn't be an issue from what I've read but again, not sure. That it is a military rebarrel would also seem to indicate that the receiver is not cracked but again, I don't know their proceedure for this if it was.

some facts...
P14,s and 1917,s were ALL 3.5% Nickel steel, and surface hardened, no issues with being brittle ect. they are actually very soft.
the cracked from being barreled is a stretch as well, so far, iv yet to see one cracked from rebarreling.. and no one has posted a picture of one as of yet.
not saying it isnt possible, just unlikely.
they are without a doubt one of the strongest actions ever made.

[Aragorn243]

According to the various articles I've read last night and this morning, Eddystone rifles have a reputation for cracking at the receiver during re-barreling. It isn't the installation of the new barrel which is the problem, they seem to crack when the old one is removed because they were installed so tight. They recommend cutting stress lines into the old barrel before removal. Most sources all say it is a very strong action.

There is also an example of an Eddystone which had a brittle receiver similar to those of the early Springfield 03's.

I don't know how common any of these issues are, probably not very. It apparently was a serious issue with the early 03's.

I'm just trying to be somewhat cautious with this purchase without being overly so. There just seems to be so much conflicting information out there. I never even really worried about the headspace in other old rifles I've bought, probably wouldn't in this one either if I hadn't looked and seen all sorts of warnings about it.

[Patrick Chadwick]

The cracked receiver worry is seriously overrated. Often repeated, never seen a pic of an actual example. As already stated, the problem was in the removal of old barrels, not the fitting of new ones. I would assume that an arsenal-overhauled rifle is OK in this respect.

It seems that the M1917s that were arsenal-overhauled for WWII were hardly used for serious action, and so your worry should be bore damage through neglect (pitting) or overenthusistic use of the pull-through (bell-mouthing) rather than anything else.

Likewise the headspace "issue" - which is all too often a user error. The question arises because the M1917 bolt has an enormous camming action. This means that you think the rifle has excessive headspace, because the bolt closes on a NOGO gauge, whereas in fact the gauge has been squashed by the huge camming force! The result is a ruined gauge and a rifle that is erroneously judged to be faulty.

When using a gauge, just about no force should be applied - let the bolt fall by its own weight!

And if you are still worried about those cracks - take the action out of the stock, clean it, and then wipe over with a rag soaked in acetone or a similar highly volatile fluid. A crack will be shown by a thin damp line as the acetone dries faster on the surface than in the crack. Any crack that is not shown up by this test would probably require ultrasonic testing to find it.

For 300 (pounds, dollars or euros) I would get it, clean it and shoot it. But search these forums thoroughly first, for advice on refurbishing old service rifles. The techniques are similar to all bolt-action rifles.

"For the most part, I've sought inexpensive pieces that are in good functional shape and just need a bit of TLC to clean them up etc."

I agree wholeheartedly with that - most milsurps are neglected rather than defective. Good luck with your M1917!

Patrick

[45B20]

I wrote this thing up before I saw Patrick's very good post, but Iam going to add it anyway just for added information:

Aragorn

What articles did you read?? did the authors cite any first person accounts?? did any of the authors present their sources?? Regrettably, a lot of information on the web is not trustworthy or just plain hogwash.
Brittle receiver steel in an assembled, passed proof M1917?? I would like to see their source.

The Eddystone cracked receiver ring story has been blown way out of portions (just like the 03 low numbers thing). C.B. Ferris has a nice concise overview of the problem on pg.167. Out of interest I am going thru my 1950 to 60 American Rifleman and see what I can find, Triggs has an article on the subject in June of 60, AR. I will let you know if I find anything important.

During the early 60s I did my apprenticeship to be a gunsmith. One of my less enjoyable jobs was cleaning and inspecting the surplus rifles and pistols that went thru the shop, many in bulk for other stores. I inspected each Eddystone for a crack receiver ring (we used kerosene and a heat lamp) and after perhaps 200 of the things, I found exactly zero, none. I was shown one with a receiver crack, it appeared to still be an unmussed with GI. Some years later I went thru another 100 Eddystones (yep, all Eddystones) for an auto parts chain, (Western Auto??) and still did not find one.

The headspace thing is another overdone subject. When I say 17s headspace is looser than 03s, what I mean is: most M1903s will not close on a 1.946” (NoGo) gauge, and most M1917s will. However few M1917s will close on the 1.950” (Field Reject) gauge, and this is the gauge that counts. The catastrophe that some people envision will occur if a rifle with headspace of over 1.950” (talking about .30 Cal here) is fired, is BS. With good ammo nothing will happen except making the cases hard to resize and short case life. I once had the opportunity to check what happen when a .30 Cal was fired with excessive headspace. We did not even get a ruptured case until headspace reached 1.970“,, and then maybe only one or two out of twenty rounds, at 1.980” we were getting a ruptured case about every round. This was all GI ammo of mixed lots, using two M1919A4s, we also ran the same test using four 50 Cal M2 HBs, (what the test was really supposed to be run on but we fudged).

Stop being such a worry wart. For $300 I think it is still a very good buy and be sure to order a copy of “United States Rifle Model of 1917” by C.S. Ferris, best single book on the subject. OR, buy the book and then go looking for a M1917.

45B20

[Aragorn243]

Aragorn

What articles did you read?? did the authors cite any first person accounts?? did any of the authors present their sources?? Regrettably, a lot of information on the web is not trustworthy or just plain hogwash.
Brittle receiver steel in an assembled, passed proof M1917?? I would like to see their source.

45B20

Here is the article which mentions the brittle Eddystone receiver:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/LNSpringfieldLowRes.pdf

It is primarily about the early Springfields but there is one Eddystone that they did their "test" on, although reading it again, this may be a receiver that was sent to him and cracked when being rebarreled.

On the receiver cracks, nearly all the articles on this were from message boards similar to this one and seemed to be "words of wisdom" passed down from person to person so accuracy is questionable.

[Aragorn243]

CMP is selling what they call salvage grade rifles for $300. These rifles are missing the bolts and possibly other parts.

A service grade which it appears the rifle I'm looking at is selling for $500 when they have them.

Are these prices for real?