cop abuse or just cop stupid?

[Bill Hollinger]

Force may be used to:

1) Defend yourself or someone else from an attacker
2) Gain compliance with a lawful order
3) Affect custody
4) Stop a fleeing felon when there is substantial risk to the general public

We are taught that the use of force starts when we use "verbal persuasion", then physical strengths and holds, use of baton, chemical agents, less-lethal projectiles and other immobilization devises (tasers) and then firearms. We are not required to progress through the steps from lowest to highest. We can use that force that is needed for the above four. We have to read the need in less than the time it takes to count to two.

This taser situation falls under gaining compliance with a lawful order and affecting custody. Too many people look at what started the incident and say that was the cause. What started the incident, only started it. What finished it was one of the above listed four being threatened.

For instance; a subject very loud and agitated while the officer is conducting an FI on him. The officer tells the subject to turn around to be placed in handcuffs. The subject refuses and becomes more agitated. The officer sprays him with O/C and then places him in cuffs. The officer did not spray him because he was agitated, he sprayed him because he refused a lawful order to be placed in handcuffs for his and the officer's safety. Now you cop haters will say the cop sprayed him because he was agitated and he is a badge heavy cop and cut from the same cloth as the crook.

I've been a cop for way too many years and I can assure all of you that if a traffic stop was made and made with PC and one of the subjects leg bailed from the stop, less-lethal is authorized in nearly all agencies across the world. Cops are like dogs, run and we'll chase you.

Nobody has been able to say just what happened when the cop caught up with the subject. Without all the facts, it is very unfair to pass judgment either way. This is what the news papers do, Monday morning quarterbacking! This is for all the cop haters that have posted on this. And someone said "I'll never call the cops"! I'm calling a big BS on that one. There will come a day when you will need one. I only hope they haven't read this thread.

[CSP ADMIN (Retired)]

There will come a day when you will need one. I only hope they haven't read this thread.

Thank you for all your service Bill, as well as that of Art and the many other retired (and active) LEO's who are members of this community. It is certainly appreciated by most of us .....

I served 17 years in the military and I'm not sure I would be able to do that job with all of the political correct nonsense and constant scrutiny that goes on from reporters and politicians. all of whom sit comfortably behind their desks, or lock their doors at night to let the potential anarchy become your problem.

Anyway, enough said ....

[John Kepler]

Bill....we are ALL prisoners of our own experience. Google: "Melissa Anne Herstrum" to understand mine...fair enough?

Just an observation: Police forces are a necessary evil, unfortunately one that is at times more evil than necessary. Too many LEO's act like they are part of an occupying army rather than members of a community, and that is when the system begins to break-down. Treat me like a hump...I react to you like you're Jeffrey Hodge coming after my daughter...and the beat goes on!

"Trust but verify!" R.W. Reagan

[rayg]

"Treat me like a hump...I react to you like you're Jeffrey Hodge coming after my daughter...and the beat goes on!"

You know that works both ways. Peoples actions and attitudes affect how they are treated by the police also. It's not a one way street? Ray

[CSP ADMIN (Retired)]

You know that works both ways. Peoples actions and attitudes affect how they are treated by the police also. It's not a one way street? Ray

Thanks Ray ..

A man of few words ...

Well said and very apropos ....

[Bill Hollinger]

John, that murder was terrible. There is not getting around that. There is bad in every corner of the world. The problem is that if an agency of 1000 officers has one like Jeffrey Hodge, the bad guy is Jeffrey Hodge, not the other 999 officers.

Who is Melissa Anne Herstrum to you? If she is related somehow, then for that I am very sorry this happened to your family. I didn't do it nor did the other 999 officers.

[RED]

to "Gain compliance with a lawful order."

You see Bill that is a big part of the problem. What constitutes a lawful order? In reality it is whenever a cop opens his mouth, a "lawful order" ensues. Any and all of your constitutional rights (including life and liberty) are lost right then and there.

I won't bore you with anecdotal incidents that have occurred to me and thousands of others. These incidents happen every hour of every day. Cops and politicians are of a common ilk. They usually start out with good intentions. Then the system grabs them and those good intentions pave the highway to Hell.

When you pin on that badge it automatically exempts you from the law. Cops routinely lie, cheat, and disobey both the laws of man and of God. They can do so, usually without consequences. I fear the police far more than the "bad guys." Bad guys have never harmed me or my family. Cops have... When you talk about 999 good cops and 1 bad one, in my opinion/experience, your numbers are reversed.

[Bill Hollinger]

WOW! Sorry you feel that way.

[Sgt. Rob P.]

Seeing how I am hated just for my profession, I think I'll just go back to being an occasional post reader. I have really enjoyed the CSP boards since I first started posting in 1999. Particularly the M1 / M14 board and the M1903 Board. But this cop bashing here is alot of unfounded nonsense. And I am just not comfortable exchanging historical firearms info with folks who will hate me only because I have a job that keeps the public safe.

I live and work in a very rural county and everyone pretty much knows everyone else. Problem Deputies are weeded out quickly. Use of force is usually only needed when dealing with the heavily drunk or high individuals who haven't any brain cells functioning at the time. 9 times out of 10 they are very sorry for their actions when they sober up. I have not had no where near the type of anti cop hate talk that I see here from sober people. The drunks are altogether diffrent, and you need thick skin or you have no business being a cop.

However, I do not need to come here and see this type of cop bashing from other (sober?) individuals. Sorry guys, I'll drop by from time to time but my posting will become even more limited then it has been.

Sincerely, Sgt. Rob P. (over the years due to CSP glitches I have been known as Rob in Idaho and USMC Rob)

[Ken C.]

Bill, you, Art, and others have stated the case as well as it can be stated. I too am sorry to see so many otherwise good people express such outright hostility towards a whole segment of society (the police) the great majority of whom have done nothing to deserve it. I can only hope that the people in this thread who have expressed such negative opinions of the police are in a distinct minority. Otherwise there isnt much hope for society. If all the "good" people feel that way, who could blame the scum for being the way they are? As for me, I wont lose any sleep over being exposed to such animosity, nor should you. Some of the negative opinions I saw expressed here I dismiss as so much hot air. I am proud of what you, Art, and all the others in uniform have done for John Q. Public, and if he doesnt realize why we feel the way we do, then he can go scratch his A--. I am retired and no longer have to worry what they think, one way or the other.