A Follow-Up to M1 Accuracy "debate" and M80 discussion below

[AKA Hugh Uno]

the "Ciriterion Barrel" expectations discussion (below) criterion garand barrel - Military Surplus Collectors Forums
got me thinking, especially the comment about the accuracy (or lack thereof really) of various M80 (7,62/.308) GI ball ammo.

TexasFlyBoy and Jim in NE had some interesting comments also along these lines (i.e. that most M80 shot like doo-doo except for some FN).

Well, as soon as they mentioned this, I thought of what is LEFT of my 1000 rounds of "mixed, dirty, tarnished--NO RETURNS NO REFUNDS 7.62" ammo I bought 10+ years ago from Century Arms for 75 bucks shipped if I recall correctly *that's less than 8 cents a round folks.

What did I get, two ammo cans of loose dusty, dirty tarnished FN M84-60 7.62X51 marked ammo.

Out of the whole lot, there were mayb e 8-10 rounds even I would't shoot, but NONE was very clean. The two rounds in the picture are the NICEST two I could find. The funny thing is that this stuff EASILY outshoots any other GI ball around. This includes Radway Green 84, CAVIM 92, SAfrican Blister Pack, RA 64 (beautifiul stuff), etc, all of which I have a decent amount of. In fact, I had to decide NOT to shoot the "cruddy" M80 anymore as I was down to only a half can! This is fairly easy now, because I am down to only one .308 anyway (match M1), although if it was military and shot 7.62, I have owned em over the years! LOL

Interesting stuff indeed.

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[Texasflyboy]

... especially the comment about the accuracy (or lack thereof really) of various M80 (7,62/.308) GI ball ammo. TexasFlyBoy and Jim in NE had some interesting comments also along these lines (i.e. that most M80 shot like doo-doo except for some FN).

I want to be very specific who I am tarring with this brush.

It is not most M80 shoots like doo-doo except for some FN. It was that almost everything shoots better than Lake City M80. Even Winchester White Box .308 Winchester shoots better in my M1A's than Lake City M80.

My comments are squarely aimed at Lake City. No other M80 manufacturers. My experience, proven time and time again is that there is an unsubstantiated price premium associated with all Lake City manufactured ammunition. Current production Lake City M193, M855, M80 fall into this class. My beef is that the perceived reputation far exceeds its actual performance. It is not worth what they want for it accuracy wise. That is my point.

Why? I have no idea, but I have diligently tried to find out. And I am not the only one. All of us in my group, have tried at many times over the course of our lives, tried to find accurate ball ammo that is USGI Lake City manufactured in those calibers.

The exception? Lake City manufactured .30 Ball. Even quite of bit of M2 AP was very accurate. For reasons I have been unable to find out, WWII and Korean era Lake City manufactured .30 Ball and AP has had very consistent, near MOA performing lots. Not every lot, but there are well known lots of .30 Ball and AP that shoots like it has eyes. I've had some of the Korean .30 ball stuff shoot very well in my 03A3's. Not all lots, but some.

But I have never shot Lake City M193, M855, M80 ball rounds that would be considered accurate by anyone's standard.

The most accurate M193 I've even owned and shot was Malaysian M193 that Century imported back in the mid-90's. Very good ammo. 1640 rounds for $200 delivered to your door. I didn't buy nearly enough (I am approaching the end of what I have now)

The best SS109/M855? Without a doubt the Portuguese SS109 green tip ammo that was imported by various importers in the early to mid 90's. Very consistent, very accurate (near MOA out to 200 yards with stock military Colt AR-15's).

The best M80 ball I've shot was that Austrian and MEN M80 surplus.

And its not just the weapons or the caliber of the ammunition. There are well known lots of Chinese Steel Core (copper wash steel case) 7.62x39 that was pretty darn accurate in semi-auto AK and RPK Chinese rifles. We ran through a few batches of that steel core stuff back in the early 90's that was accurate enough to consistently hit 6" x 6" steel targets at 150 yards 90% of the time. Based on our experience with other 7.62x39, that's darn good accuracy for 7.62x39. It was $69/1000 (wood case). Oh how I wish I had put away 25,000 rounds of that instead of 2,000.

I have the current MILSPEC's for M193, M855, and M80. When I read the section regarding accuracy requirements to meet the MILSPEC I want to believe it. I've just never seen it.

My .02

[rhabraham@owc.net]

I was given a tour of LC in 2003. I saw the 5.56 and M80 ball that was being sold under the Federal Label as well as the plain brown box stuff the CMP and others were selling. every round loaded by LC is weighed.The rounds that are NOT up to U.S. Mil. Spec i.e., the culls went into the federal and plain brown boxes to be sold OR used for training purposes only.
This could be a reason why it doesn't shoot as well as RA-66, WRA-67-67 which was mil spec ammo. The reason the European ammo tends to shoot better than the late LC on the market is most likely because it is good MIL SPEC ammo being surplussed because nato has talked them into going 5.56.
That is also the most likely the reason 308 has dried up recently. The surplus stocks are all gone or down to a certain amount held in war reserve like all the M2 LC and HXP for sale.No need to keep it anylonger no guns in the system.
Just an opinion.....................

[AKA Hugh Uno]

The reason the European ammo tends to shoot better than the late LC on the market is most likely because it is good MIL SPEC ammo being surplussed because nato has talked them into going 5.56. That is also the most likely the reason 308 has dried up recently. The surplus stocks are all gone or down to a certain amount held in war reserve like all the M2 LC and HXP for sale.No need to keep it anylonger no guns in the system.
Just an opinion.....................

I am SURE that 7.62X51 is STILL being used for GP MGs in virtually every NATO country..

[JBS]

7.62 X 51 designated MG ammo is linked and packaged. 7.62 X 51 individual arms is not packaged in links. Most Governments do not recall, tear down, link, repackage 7.62 individual arms ammo. They just recall it and after retaining a reserve sell off the rest by date, and I believe that is what he was communicating in his post.