No32 v Contemporary German Scope Trials 1943

[Simon]

The earlier post and comments regarding the trials of the 32 scope on the Bren got me thinking about a copy of a report I had buried somewhere in my archive. Anyhoo after a bit of digging and trawling of hard drives I've managed to find the copy of the document I re-typed from the somewhat faded original.

Hope it's of interest?

Cheers,
Simon.

Information

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[PrinzEugen]

Thanks for that Simon - a really interesting read - and the conclusions were fairly, er, conclusive! Would the adjustments made to the mk2 and mk3 no32s have made much of a difference in the comparisons do people think?

[Surpmil]

Could someone just post the text for those of us whose winzip has expired?

[Badger]

Thanks Simon ... great read ...

Converted to Adobe PDF file to read in-line with thread for those with computers that can't handle ZIP files, or members who don't know how to UN-ZIP them ..

Click PDF file to open and read now, or right click with your mouse to save it.

Regards,
Badger

[Surpmil]

1. The Board concur in the remarks made by C.I.A. and C.I.S.A.
2. The Board are of opinion that this German sight offers considerable advantages over the No32 Mark I telescope and consider it as a matter of some regret that this valuable information has not come to light earlier.
3. The Board recommend that consideration should be given to the possibility of able (sic) to manufacture this telescope in this country if the production situation allows.

Colonel Acland demonstrated his purpose built hunting/sniping rifle to the Small Arms Committee in the 1930s. It had a Zeiss Zeilvier or Zeilsechs fitted with a windage drum. Col. Acland mentioned that he had asked several "leading firms" in the UK to produce the sort of scope he wanted, and was told that "something might be done in about two years". Zeiss produced what he wanted within months or less apparently. Windage drums were an option on those models anyway from what I understand. Col. Acland offered to purchase another scope on behalf of the War Office. Nothing was done, so it's a bit precious to say, that "it as a matter of some regret that this
valuable information has not come to light earlier", since even if the technical people never bothered to obtain so much as a Zeiss or Hensoldt catalogue from the nearest gunmakers, Col. Acland put the matter right under their noses well before the war. The result? "NFA"...until what, 1980 something?

[jmoore]

Having shot both types, I like the No. 32 better overall, except that the graticle points tend to be a bit ill defined on some of the British scopes. The German scope may be a "little" better for game as the objective lenses tend to run larger, so it works a bit better in low light conditions. Daytime resolution isn't all that different. (My sampling inventory runs rather heavily toward the British, but I've shot plenty of German gear as well...)

The above recommendations seem to have been asuming that the German scopes could have been "modded" to suit, but then why not change the No.32? Not exactly an unbiased way to make judgement.

[PrinzEugen]

The result? "NFA"...until what, 1980 something?

Even worse - didn't L42s with No32s go out to the first Gulf War in 1991? An extreme example of how a decision made in haste (?) or without proper consideration can live on for a long time!

[arado]

This I have known for some time. The ZF4 on top of a G/K43 was in my opinion the class of WW2.The concept has evolved to the current issue zastava M76. Semi auto using 198 7.92x57. Fitted with Zastava built scope using Zeiss technology. My personal choice of individual weapon. Combined with Zastava M57 tokarev in .30 Mauser as sidearm. Gary Moore

[Surpmil]

I believe the Royal Marines and perhaps the SAS(?) had a special bracket made up to mount more modern optics around that time. Possibly purpose built for the Gulf War, I'm not sure what I've read now. Didn't someone post a photo of an S&B scope in one the other day? I had one, but its parentage was never entirely clear.

Don't get me wrong, the No32 is a very robust design, but as that study says, it is twice as heavy as it needs to be, and this overloads the pads on firing so that they work loose. And of course the soldier has to pack that extra metal around instead of something more useful.

The UK went from importing almost all their optical glass from Germany/Austria before WWI to complete self-sufficiency during WWI and the glass was very good indeed if the WWI scopes I've owned were any indication. The Aldis No2 of 1915 was really superb optically. Better than some No32 Mk3s IMO. The Aldis No4 was excellent as well. They were the equal of German WWI scopes I had: Bock, Busch, Goerz etc.

It seems the ball was dropped after WWI though. No coordination with government or within the industry, despite there being talk of this during the war. Most of the wartime gains were allowed to lapse etc. Aldis apparently didn't want to bother with the civilian scope market, and so the field was left to the Germans and Austrians, with the residue going to the Americans.

The Germans had their share of follies, like over-complexity and claw mounts that adjust by twisting the scope tube(!), but let's call a spade a spade.

I've never handled a C No67, or the REL 5x that was trialed during the war, but perhaps someone who has can comment on their optical qualities. Clive Law quotes "the Assistant [Deputy?] Chief of the Imperial General Staff" who stated that "The Canadian...sights were incomparably better in every way than anything we or the Germans had so far produced. [as of 1944/45]"

[jmoore]

For weight, the USMC 10x Unertl as used on the M40a1 weighs just about the same as a No.32 Mk II WITH its bracket assembly attatched! (W/in a couple of ounces either way- I can't remember which is heavier and they were weighed just yesterday!)

I've also put "better" optics on the L42a1, using the IWS bracket, and couldn't shrink the already stupidly small groups any further.

Of course, the comparision w/ the German scope was against a No.32 Mk I, w/ 50yd-e/ 2 min.-w adjustments, no backlash provisions, and a wretched sun shade. Maybe...