Mum

[mhess]

My dad was on a ship in WW2 that was to invade japan and on the way they dropped the bomb and the war ended. He ended up in japan off loading ships, he ran a duck. Any way he brought home a type 99 rifle. I have the rifle and the paper work that let him bring it home. The mum has been ground off. He said he knows nothing about grinding off the mum. Was the mum ground off by him? the u.s. or did he find it that way? Also why did they grind it off. He also brought home a bayonet that I was told is worth more than the rifle. I have also been told the paper work to bring the rifle home is worth more than the rifle. Thanks for any info.

Information

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[Bill Hollinger]

The mums were ground off by the Japanese. Their idea was that if their weapons were going to be captured the national symbol (the chrysanthemum) was not going to be captured with them.

Generally, battlefield rifles that were captured war souvenirs have the mum. Surrendered rifles do not.

[Dave]

I would say the papers are not worth anything without the rifle, they do increase value of rifle. Bayonets can be worth up to 150, maybe 200 if a rare model. Most rifles would be worth more.

Sounds like you are talking to a "know it all".

[Jim K]

The vast majority of "captured" and "bring back" Japanese rifles came out of depots in Japan after the war. One of the concessions made to prevent unnecessary trouble was that the depot workers were allowed to grind off or deface the "mum", which was the emperor's personal crest, before surrendering the rifles.

This has become well known, and many fanciful stories have been told to "explain" how a rifle that a relative "captured in hand-to-hand combat" has a ground crest.

One of the best I heard was that the rifle had a crest when it was brought back, but after the war, the FBI came and took the rifle away and when the vet got it back the crest was ground off. Supposedly this was at the order of Pres. Truman, who personally kept track of every weapon brought back by American GI's, as part of a Democratic gun control scheme!!! Wow! And he had time to be a pretty fair president, too.

Jim

[mhess]

The rifle I have was found laying in a field. Dad said it's just the way he found it.

[rayg]

Does the paperwork have the rifles serial number on it? Also I would suggest having your dad or you write up a bit of history on the rifle and linking the paperwork to it even if the serial number is not listed.
There are alot of very convincing fake papers out there and it used to be that rifles with bring back papers added a considerable premium to it's value but not so much any more, unless the paperwork is positively linked to the rifle via documention.
It's pretty well understood that any rifle with a ground MUM is a bringback, paperwork or not.
The rifles still having the Mum with "real" paperwork dated before the end of the war are the ones that will bring a real premium as they are considered battle field bringbacks. Ray

[2571]

A serious collector of WWII memorabilia recently told me hew has heard the stories change as the age of those vets got older. In the late 40's & early 50's, guys would brag about how they acquired a trophy in explicit, gory detail. As guys got older, the bring-backs all seem to have been acquired laying in a field or won in card game.

Can't say I can blame a guy -- who wants to remember unpleasant stuff like that in your old age.

[kcw]

My recently deceased neighbor was one of the first Americans to set foot into Japan at the end of the war. He was with the Navy and his ship was among the first to anchor in Tokyo habor. Their first duty was to escort Army troops and set up security (ie. see that the planes at nearby airfields were disabled etc.)
One of the things they did was to secure a Jap arsenal. When they first entered the arsenal they found women working feverishly at bench grinders where they were grinding the mum off of new rifles. There were other women bringing crates of rifles to the grinding area. Kids were dragging the altered rifles and empty crates outside the building and dumping them off the loading dock.
Recognizing a chance to make a buck, my neighbor and his fellows "expropriated" a large number of crated rifles and trucked them down to the harbor. There they loaded those little navy "runabouts" with rifle crates to the point that they nearly sank. they then proceeded to go from ship to ship selling rifles. Crates were dumped overboard as they were emptied. I believe that $40 was the going price per rifle. It was a sellers' market.
He did recall that the Japs put up a small fuss about taking the crated rifles.
He didn't know how many rifles were sold but recalled that the harbor was awash in floating rifle crates. After about a week of selling they were ordered to stop. It's my understanding that orders were soon issued stating that the "mum" on any captured "prize of war" in the hands of troops was to be defaced. Commanding officers were suppose to see that this was done but apparently the order was all but ignored.

[Calif-Steve]

The "mum" (Chrysanteum) is the personal family crest of the Emperor of Japan. It was HIS property, not Japan's. I have heard MacArthur ordered the mum removed so as not to offend the Emperor. Lots of stories around, not sure which to believe.

[Jim K]

The more logical version is that MacArthur ALLOWED (not ordered) the "mum" to be defaced before rifles were surrendered. While the policy was questioned by some of the hard line types ("kill all the yellow SOB's"), the U.S. bent over backward to keep the Emperor out of the picture in regard to war crimes, responsibility, etc. They were unsure of how the Japanese people would react if the Emperor were to be arrested or brought to trial. So concessions were made, both large (allowing the Emperor to remain on the throne) and small (like removal of the "mum") rather than take a chance on a general uprising that could have resulted in countless deaths and injuries on both sides.

Jim