.22 Cal SMLE, surprise me!

[Alan de Enfield]

Anyone know where you can get replacement .22 magazines for the No. 7 (British)? You know, the little mag that was inserted/welded into the regular mag.

Well I know a guy whose got some and selling at £80 each.
I was looking at buying a complete sportsman 5 rifle (with magazine) scrapping the rifle and keeping the magazine. The complete rifles are fetching about £16 - £25 each at an auction I frequent.

US$1.5 = GB pound £1

[Son]

Has anyone considered a sub calibre insert along the lines of the barrel insert and bolt? I was thinking of something along the lines of the old sub cal adaptor used in the FN FAL/L1A1 rifle

Hey, now that would be an interesting addition to my SAF target rifle! I wonder who I'd have to kill to get one of those!

Something that hasn't been said here about the trainers... When WW1 broke out, there was a perceived shortage of trainers so the W^D contracted out the conversion of older models and previously converted rifles to .22 calibre. Contracting the work achieved several things, firstly so as not to tie up RSAF and major military contractors production lines at a time when they were trying to meet increased demands for front line weapons. It also helped keep a few firms afloat as some were already in financial trouble in 1915- Westley Richards for one was on the brink of closure (documented on their website). It also ended up with some companies, AJ Parker and later Parker Hale (not the same group- there were a couple of "divisions" in the Parker family in the trade which had gone their seperate ways by this time- details available through google) thriving on converting and modifying rifles for various target shooting groups.
There were no purpose built .22 trainers untill much later on as demostrated earlier in the thread. Although the amount and type of markings varied a lot, a rifle with a 1916 build date and marked No2 MkIV would have been a much later conversion, possibly as late as the 1950's (working from memory here, please correct me if I stuff it up!)

[Peter Laidler]

Correct me if I'm wrong Son, but I remember L1A1 sub calibre adaptors being in service when I was in Australia. Is this what you need for your SAF target rifle? Will the SAF target rifle take one?

[Son]

Peter, I haven't been "in the game" that long- but assume they would have used them. I'll ask the Tiffy on Monday.
I hadn't even thought about a sub cal adaptor. Although I have to admit it would be a very desirable addition as long as it didn't hurt the rifle
The barrel looks to be the heavier L2A1 barrel without the flash eliminator. Still only 21 inches long, and would have to be single loaded- no magazine.

[n64atlas]

Peter:
Though I have had this adaptor for a few years, I have never shot it. It wouldn't fit the bore of my Lithgow, so I bought an Ishapor No1 MkIII* that had a bad bolt. I've yet to take it to the range. Too many 22 trainers, so little time :^)

As to the follow up question n64Atlas means 1964 Norton Atlas 750

[Tom in N.J.]

Sub caliber insert,.. Numrich made the famous '03, '03A3 unit back in the 60s. They also made one for the SMLE. It consists of a tube barrel insert, with nut at muzzle, and a complete bolt with .22 cal. bolt head. I have one stashed away somewhere.

I now see n64atlas' postings... I didn't even see page 2 &3 until after I posted...sorry! My .22 conversion unit is just like his.

[Peter Laidler]

The BSA No7 magazine saga is a bit like the L1A1 sub-calibre magazine too. Millions of the large outers, plently/sufficient (?) of the .22" inserts but none of the interface pressings to mate the two together.

Alan......... is the £80 you're talking of the complete No7 magazine or just the little sportsman 5 insert part? Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh!

[Alan de Enfield]

The BSA No7 magazine saga is a bit like the L1A1 sub-calibre magazine too. Millions of the large outers, plently/sufficient (?) of the .22" inserts but none of the interface pressings to mate the two together.

Alan......... is the £80 you're talking of the complete No7 magazine or just the little sportsman 5 insert part? Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh!

Thats what I said (or very similar anyway) - no its just the sportsman 5 mag that inserts into the pressing / outer magazine.
Repeat - inner magazine ONLY !!!

[John Sukey (Deceased)]

I often wonder what happened to the .22 calibre adapters for the L1A1. Did they scrap them along wih the rifles?
Other than the one I have, I have never seen any others on offer.

Oh while I am at it, can somebody explain to me how the British came to the definition of a "lethal barrel"

[Peter Laidler]

It's not a lethal barrel, it's a lethal, barrelled weapon. That means that it is a lethal weapon that has a barrel. A bit like a PIAT........... that hasn't got a barrel. Don't ask us, we're all confused!

Hundreds of the sub cal adaptors were fixed permanently into the actual L1A1 rifles due to the fact that once the barrel bulged, it was impossible to remove it from the rifle so the whole kit stayed put! Another rifle was demanded to replace the now fixed .22" version. The now permanent .22" rifle was marked with a painted red band around the muzzle and stayed as a .22.

This was the only way that you could obtain one of the storeage boxes for the kits because the box was a NP (Not provisioned) part for some reason and it was only when the barrel was bulged into the rifle that the sub cal assembly moved from the box to the rifle...... leaving the box redundant.

When the L1A1 was withdrawn, hundreds of .22" L1A1;s remained behind for many, many years until they went too. To the great scrap yard in the sky. The H&K made L1A1 kits were identical to the H&K FN variant except for the magazine cases. The UK MoD .22" magazines were made heavier to replicace a filled 7.62mm magazine. However, the recoil of the .22" just didn't quite replicate the recoil of its bigger brother, especially while wearing only a thin shirt or no shirt at all.

There seems to be plenty of .22" sub cal kits around but, alas, no magazines, even the FN type.

Maybe an article about the sub cal kit wouldn't go amiss. So, to start it off. I know we had them in Australia but can't recall having them in NZ. The first question is this. Did you have them in NZ? Did you have them in Canada?