BLO or oiled wood

[Edward Horton]

Edward et al, I would be grateful if someone could either verify the following or demonstrate that it is a myth:

I once read (sorry, I've lost the reference) that the tung oil used by the Japanese on the T38 and T99 rifles was derived from the Tung oil tree (Aleurites fordii). It belongs to the Euphorbia Family (Euphorbiaceae) and the juice of euphorbia plants, commonly known in the garden as spurges, can cause allergic reactions.

And, so the mislaid source, some GIs exhibited allergic reactions after handling captured Japanese rifles. This story may have some element of truth. If true, it would explain why a merchant of a wood finish might want to cash in on the known name of Tung as a good wood finish, but avoid using the real stuff to avoid medical claims from allergic customers.

Thanks to anyone who can clarify!

Patrick

I charge $50.00 and hour for cutting and pasting, my bill come to $1.66

Tung oil is made from the pressed seed from the nut of the tung tree. Tung oil is considered a drying oil much as linseed, safflower, poppy and soybean oil. When applied, it provides a tough, highly water-resistant finish which does not darken noticeably with age as does linseed oil. This is not to say that it is a colorless finish; it still has a slight golden tint.
Tung oil is also sometimes called “China wood oil”. It has been used for hundreds if not thousands of years in China to seal decorative and marine wood as well as porous masonry.
As the source of tung oil is a nut, people with nut allergies often report adverse reactions to contact with (or even the odour of) tung oil. Reactions can be severe in some cases. Whilst tung oil has been used for many centuries as a finish for kitchen items such as wooden bowls and cutting boards, some individuals must avoid its use.

Tung oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pure Tung Oil comes from cold pressing of the seeds or nuts of the Tung tree. Tung trees mainly grow in the mountainous regions of china away from industrialization and pollution. Climate, soil and air quality are essential for a high quality oil. Our 100% Pure Chinese Tung Oil or China wood oil is a all natural finish manufactured by pressing the tung nut, no petroleum distillates or other additives - just Pure Tung Oil. All Pure Tung Oils are not the same. Some low priced marketers will package South American Tung Oil (dark, greenish in color) and sell its as the higher quality Chinese Tung Oils. Chinese Pure Tung Oil is available in 3 grades, we only offer the best available, Grade 1 yellow. A better quality Pure Chinese Tung Oil will offer superior color, faster drying and a long term elastic finish. Elasticity is a important factor as the oil must continue to flex with the expansion and contraction of the substrate on which it is applied.

Pure Tung Oil Finish - Wood Finishing - All Natural Finish - China Wood Oil - Real Milk Paint ®

[Donzi]

Patrick, I'd vote for urban legend, since the US military went to a tung oil dip as an initial factory coating on its small arms wood during WW II & no outbreak of "wood rash" has been thus far reported. HTH.
Donzi

[Parashooter]

Patrick, you may be barking up the wrong tree. Google "urushi" to find out more about the somewhat toxic finish used on many Japanese military rifles.

See also, Toxicodendron vernicifluum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Peter Laidler]

The Japanese allergic oil story is similar to the AK47 story put around immediately after the first gulf war that most of the abandoned rifles had been doctored by drilling into the underside of the barrel, where the hand supports the fore-end, so that if you picked one up and fired it, it'd explode and blow your fingers off. It scared the xhit out of a lot of blokes but I fired hundreds of 'em and hundreds since too!

I worked on the basis that they couldn't even strip them to use a pull-through, let alone strip them to use something as complicated and technical as a hand (or even a power) drill!

[Milsurp Collector]

Edward et al, I would be grateful if someone could either verify the following or demonstrate that it is a myth:

I once read (sorry, I've lost the reference) that the tung oil used by the Japanese on the T38 and T99 rifles was derived from the Tung oil tree (Aleurites fordii). It belongs to the Euphorbia Family (Euphorbiaceae) and the juice of euphorbia plants, commonly known in the garden as spurges, can cause allergic reactions.

And, so the mislaid source, some GIs exhibited allergic reactions after handling captured Japanese rifles. This story may have some element of truth. If true, it would explain why a merchant of a wood finish might want to cash in on the known name of Tung as a good wood finish, but avoid using the real stuff to avoid medical claims from allergic customers.

Thanks to anyone who can clarify!

Patrick

This is an interesting story that was covered in the old Jouster.com boards.

Japanese Type 38 rifles were finished with linseed oil (per "The Type 38 Arisaka" by Allan and Macy, a fabulous book by the way BANZAI&copy Special Project #8 - The Type 38 Arisaka). Type 99 rifles were finished with urushi, which is made from a "toxic, caustic sap" of the Toxicodendron vernicifluum tree Toxicodendron vernicifluum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia While cured urushi finish is stable, exposure to uncured urushi, or urushi dust (such as caused by sanding a urushi finish, such as found on a Type 99 stock) can cause a contact dermatitis http://www.urushi-kobo.com/rash!.html

Tung oil originally came from China (it is sometimes known as chinawood oil) and has never been documented to have ever been used on Japanese Type 38 or Type 99 rifles.

Shortly after World War II there were two reports in the medical literature of cases of contact dermatitis among servicemen who were exposed to the "Japanese varnish" on war-trophy rifles. These were servicemen who sanded the finish or had "initmate contact" with the varnish. Almost certainly it was urushi finish on Type 99 rifles that caused the rashes. "Toxic, caustic" urushi has a well-known ability to cause rash, whereas linseed oil was widely used on military rifles around the world with few if any reports of rash, and tung oil was not known to be used on Japanese rifles. Tung oil was used on M1 (Garand) Rifles, but again with few if any reports of rash.

Now here is where the urban legend about tung oil causing a rash begins: in the December 1947 issue of American Rifleman someone wrote a letter to the editor in which the author describes a rash he incurred while working on a Japanese rifle stock. The author believed the rash was due to the wood used in the stock, and most of the editor's response was a description of various woods that are known to produce adverse reactions in some people.

But in the last paragraph, the editor says "On the other hand, your experience may have been due not to the wood itself but to something in the varnish or dressing that the Japs used on the stock. Tung oil is a very popular ingredient in varnishes in China and Japan. Some people are violently allergic to Tung oil and a slight trace of it might produce alarming symptoms."

You see what happened? The letter writer described a rash from a Japanese rifle stock, most likely caused by urushi. Japan is in Asia, tung oil comes from Asia, and the American Rifleman editor incorrectly assumed that tung oil was used to finish Japanese rifles, and came to the incorrect conclusion that tung oil caused the rash. That erroneous conclusion has become an urban legend that began in 1947 and lives on in 2009.

Now it is true that some individuals can be "violently allergic" to the most commonplace things, such as bee stings, peanuts, and shellfish. But reports of allergic reactions to tung oil are rare.

Bottom line: allergic reactions to the finish on Japanese rifle stocks are caused by urushi, not tung oil. Specific references available at http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banza...h/UpM99Fin.htm

[Patrick Chadwick]

Thanks to all who responded, especially parashooter and Milsurp Collector. Obviously I had a garbled reminiscence of the thread on the old board. Which illustrates why I usually like to give a proper reference for anything supposed to be fact, and was cautious in this case where i could not find a reference.

You see how an "urban myth" can become established, and how endless repetition does not make it any truer. One startling example occurred recently with the Quantas jet that had a blow-out in the luggage hold. A lady was quoted, repeatedly as having seen "a gaping hole in the fuselage below her". One look at the picture of the damage showed that this was nonsense. Aircraft do not have windows that you can lean out of, so even if the entire luggage hold had disappeared, you would not be able to see that from inside the passenger compartment. And even if she could have looked out of an open window, the hole would still have been invisible, because of the curve of the fuselage. What most likely happened was that she saw the hole after landing, and this visual image became fused in her mind with the shock of the event. She may well herself have believed that she saw the hole from inside, but the photo demonstrates that it was impossible. Nevertheless her claim was repeated over and over...

Why I am going on about this? Because we should all be extremely cautious about some of the opinions that are passed around on these forums referring to events and processes that none of us could actually have experienced. Such as why a particular aspect of a rifle was made in such a way. None of us was involved in the design, approval or manufacturing processes at the time, and as an engineer who often had to analyse other peoples work I can assure you it is fatally easy to make a misjudgement based on YOUR knowledge NOW while being unaware of some aspect that was perfectly obvious to those involved THEN.

In this sense, it would be a relief never to see any more speculative postings about Sgt. York ("my granpappy always said...") or design features ("inherent weakness"). As a contributor on another forum used to say "In God we trust - all others must have supporting documentation."

The garden calls. A very sunny good morning to you all from

Patrick

[RJW NZ]

This has been a great post, it should now be preserved in wikipedia for all to see...cheers

[Sunray]

"...combatants who don't have the leisure to do so. .." No troopie would be anywhere near a place that he may need his rifle with oil in the chamber. Oil dosn't compress. Oil in the chamber is bad.
"...A few small arms require oiled chambers and/or cartridges..." None of which work properly. AG42B's aren't fired with oiled chambers either.
"...you grease cartridge cases all the time..." Not brass cases you don't.

[olliecampbell]

Another vote from me, interesting thread. Thanks guys.