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  1. #11
    Really Senior Member emmagee1917's Avatar
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    Very good point . I had read that , but did not know if it was correct. You see, I also read that US&S had quite a " five-finger discount" problem. I assumed they were talking about stolen , complete pistols. What were they serial # with? If the above is true ( that they shipped a true 55,000 using 55,000 numbers with no duplicating among them ) , then they would of had to duplicate serial # some guns to fill the government's order (to replace the ser # that were stolen). If the government did not recieve any duplicate numbers in thier shipments , I think they would have been happy. The strict serial number laws we have today did not go into effect til '68 , so the manufactures could do just about what they wanted to before that , so making two with the same serial # would not be a crime and it was for a good cause.

    I do know it was usual ( for carbines ,1903s and garands as example ) to NOT use all the number in a block , and sometimes overrun into other mfg. blocks and to even not use thier assigned blocks in order or jump from one block to another and back. But , as you said , that's those guns and may not apply to 1911s.



    Oh , and I finally found the M at A issue. It is a 1922 rifle ser # 284 , and is called a " production control rifle " , if that helps anyone.

    Thanks for the imput , it means a lot. Chris

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  3. #12
    Really Senior Member Johnny Peppers's Avatar
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    We only have the records of US&S and the Ordnance Department to trust that there were indeed 55,000 US&S pistols shipped. Is there any evidence to the contrary?
    What evidence is there that a lot of US&S pistols were stolen? Is this fact or just what someone thinks? If US&S didn't know large numbers of pistols were being stolen, who did?
    The military pistols were not serial numbered to satisfy some Federal Government regulation or law. They were serial numbered because this was a requirement of the Ordnance Department and the manufacturer did not have the option of whether they serial numbered the pistols or not. That is the reason each 1911A1 contractor was issued blocks of serial numbers. When this block was completed, another block was issued. Ordnance used the serial numbers to identify each pistol as being identifiable from the one made just before it and the one made just after it.

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  5. #13
    Really Senior Member emmagee1917's Avatar
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    I only have Clawson's small book. He states in there that thievery was a big problem there. That's all I have to go by. He also says 55,000 shipped in a contract block 55,000 big. Being serial #d was part of the contract , my point was that as long as the govt. recieved 55,000 guns with 55,000 different # in the correct block , they were happy. But if several were stolen and those numbers noted as being short ( yes , US&S should have known) and duplicates made of those numbers , then there would be no big deal to them ( US&S )to stamp one off the assmly line for thier internal use , that's all. If Clawson's wrong , then I'm wrong. Won't be the first time , won't be the last nither .

    Got 32 pics of the gun. Camera's old and cheep. Pictures arn't the best , but they'll get the idea across. Got them loaded into photo bucket album. What's the best way of letting people here see them without causing bandwith problems ? Will someone help? Thanks , Chris

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    Really Senior Member Scott Gahimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emmagee1917 View Post
    ...If Clawson's wrong , then I'm wrong. Won't be the first time , won't be the last nither .

    Got 32 pics of the gun. Camera's old and cheep. Pictures arn't the best , but they'll get the idea across. Got them loaded into photo bucket album. What's the best way of letting people here see them without causing bandwith problems ? Will someone help? Thanks , Chris
    Keep in mind that Mr. Clawson doesn't have to be wrong for you to be wrong in your thinking about what this pistol is.

    Mr. Clawson is supported with documented evidence that applies to the specific pistols he addresses in his books.

    It appears you are relying on much speculation to reach your conclusions. The fact that Mr. Clawson states a number of lunchbox pistols made it out of the plant does not imply anything about a pistol having all of its parts serial numbered.

    I'll look forward to seeing photos of your pistol, but will be surprised if I see anything that leads me to believe your parts were serialized at the factory, or by the authority of the factory.

    It is easier for me to believe someone serialized the parts later...for whatever reason. I will not draw any conclusions before seeng your pistol, but as for now, you've not made enough of a case for me to believe the pistol is anything except altered.

    Thanks for sharing the photos with us.

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    Really Senior Member Johnny Peppers's Avatar
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    It has always been know that parts and pieces were smuggled out of plants making weapons, and some were assembled into pistols in an unfinished state, but if serial numbered pistols started disappearing off the assembly line, drastic measures would have been taken. This would be the same as stealing weapons from our military, and would have been dealt with.

  8. #16
    Really Senior Member emmagee1917's Avatar
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    Ok , thanks Johnny. We got a little cross-wise here , so let me re-state what I said. We really don't have a big difference here.

    The USG assigned US&S a block of numbers- US&S delivered exactly that number of pistols to the USG. To me , a stolen lunchbox pistol would mean a complete pistol stolen from US&S before the USG accepted it and put thier final mark on it and paid for it. It was stolen from US&S , not the USG. The bean counters at US&S would find one missing , and US&S would have to make another to replace it , out of thier pocket , and would have to re-use the serial # to do so. Therefore , duplicate serial numbering would have been something they did , so doing it here would not be a big deal.
    I never stated that Clawson said that the stolen arms were all marked on every part like this one. I never said that.
    I never said Clawson said anything about pistols with most every part marked. Even Dolf did not say that. Only the auction listing says that.I am saying , that backed with the auction listing , it would be a resonable way to keep these parts separated from the thousands of simular parts at the factory. I have no info on what method the auctioners used to make thier statements. I just know I have an example in my hand that sounds like what they are selling.

    As far as me relying on much speculation to reach my conclusion...well , you hit it right on the head. All I have is an example , some related info and a theory to tie them together.

    But , lets look at the other side. Why would a person take an unpitted ( so prob'ly in very good to mint condition) example , strip off all the orig finish ( if any was left) , put the last three digits of the serial # on most every part ( including PINS ! ) and then refinish it , duplicating the orig. finish? Seems like spending a lot of time and money to make something less valuable than you began with , but people do strange things.

    I did not expect this to end in a yes/no , real/fake to begin with ( still don't) , I'm just letting people know about this. Just shaking the tree to see what falls out. I've got the photos in photo bucket , just need to know the best way of posting them here. Chris

  9. #17
    Really Senior Member Johnny Peppers's Avatar
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    That's the great thing about collecting. It is your pistol, and it can be anything you want it to be.

  10. #18
    Really Senior Member Scott Gahimer's Avatar
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    Lunchbox pistols are generally accepted to be those pistols stolen by employees before they were serial numbered or had a final acceptance mark, because once a serial number was applied, the pistol could be and was tracked and accounted for.

    Maybe somebody got a new die set for Christmas. Who knows why someone might do it? To make it mysterious or interesting?

    You either need to provide a link to the album at the hosting site, or link the pictures here through the hosting site. You could even e-mail them to someone and let them post them for you.

  11. #19
    Really Senior Member emmagee1917's Avatar
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    Ok ... Hope I do this right.

    First try at this.






























    Can you see anything?

  12. #20
    Really Senior Member Scott Gahimer's Avatar
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    Finish does not look original to me in the photos. Surface prep looks too smooth...perhaps beadblasted and redone.

    The slide stop is not original. That is an M1911 part, not a US&S M191A1 part. The triggers were bright, plished blue at US&S. Trigger does not look original either.

    I'm not saying anyone faked anything. To disassemble a pistol, mark the parts, refinish it and then reassemble doesn't fake anything.

    Maybe someone was refinishing more than one pistol at a time and the parts were marked to identify which pistol they went with.

    I don't see anything that suggests something the factory would have done. Thanks for the photos.

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