Stock Humper....

[painter777]

One down.......

Sales of fake stamps or other services .... - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Hat's off to the crew here at Milsurps.

Charlie-painter777

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[imarangemaster]

I am not a Carbine collector by ANY stretch of the imagination. I am, however, a lifelong Carbine appreciator and user. This "Fakery" that has become widespread offends me. I have friends who are serious collectors of various genre, and all have been burned at one time or another. These people are not even subtle about it anymore. Good for you, bill, for confronting him.

[3ky]

Its sad that there are fakers out there. I would love to bring back a carbine to WW2 config but sadly dont have the experience to tell the real parts from fake. I'm afraid if I run into a carbine in WW2 config it might be fake. I know WW2 is starting to get like Civil War items are. Even the M3 and M4 knives are now being faked.
Now you see why I havent messed with my carbines and left them in the shape I got them in. I dont want to get burned buying expensive parts.

Hats off to you Charlie for going after someone like that!! You may have saved a newby from making an expensive mistake of buying a fake M1 stock once someone bought the stamps. I wish all these stock stamps were destroyed.
Michael

[Curt]

All RIGHT BILL!!!!!!!!!!

[Bill Hollinger]

Thanks everyone. This concerns us as well. That is why it has been brought up. I think Charlie deserves the most praise in this though. Charlie has been none stop with pointing these humper out to all of us. Going as far as listing names of buyers of fake services and fake stamp sets.

[snapperm1c]

But I thought Badger closed this line of discussion in Post # 29 here:

Stock Humper.... - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Is it re-opened?

Seems that re-opening this thread will open up such jewels as: (Bill Ricca's M1 and M14 Rifle Items)

"A20 Rubber Eyepiece for M81 & M82 Sniper Telescopes. Reproduction made to look like the originals. Produced from soft pliable black rubber. This is the only reproduction on the market that is
part marked 7575052 "

Huh?? You mean Bill Ricca would sell a fake product that looks just like the original?

I'm sure I'm wrong...

[Ramboueille]

Huh?? You mean Bill Ricca would sell a fake product that looks just like the original?

I'm sure I'm wrong...

Do you have a personal vendetta or feud with Bill Ricca?

[Tired Retired]

Snapper, I think the situations are totally different. In the case of the stock stamper, he was clearly advertising his "services" with the purpose of supporting stock owners to "fool" everyone else with false stamps. He bragged about his experience in the furniture business and how he could make the stamp look real, not recently applied.

There are alot of reproduction products out there, from sights to slings to butt plates. Some of those items are on the maket to OPENLY fill a void for items which can not affordably be had by many of us poorer gun owners. Unfortunately, some of those items are also on the market with the deliberate attempt to mislead collectors in their actual value (thats legally called fraud). I think I can speak for the majority to say that products that are clearly marked as reporductions are acceptable. I have carbine slings that that are reproductions and I will gladly tell anyone who looks at them that they are modern repos - its actually obvious to experienced collectors. I probably could not afford real, WWII slings - at least the way I get them dirty at the range in prone position. So I OPENLY choose to buy and use repro slings. I OPENLY state that the slings add no value to the carbines that they are on.

Not singling Bill out and he certainly does not need anyone's protection when it comes to his good name. There are alot of people and companies (Chestnut Ridge, Numrich) that openly sell gun parts as repros. They list them and identify them in their advertisements and they do not knowingly attempt to mislead. They also do not attempt to MARK them as the real thing.

I think it comes down to such things as trust. Honest dealers do not attempt to defraud people by misleading them about the actual authenticity and value of a part. They also do not facilitate others by assisting them to defraud and mislead others.

Thats how I see it - and I just don't trust furniture guys that want to "add value" to a stock that is not deserving of that value.

Anyone else for a turn on the soap box????

[snapperm1c]

Do you have a personal vendetta or feud with Bill Ricca?

No. Interesting question, though. I’m amused that you would bring up some “vendetta or feud” I may have with Bill. As you have stated numerous times in the past, let’s keep the discourse civil and of a non-personal nature.

I've known of Bill and his products since the early days of Shotgun News. Always liked his products and service.

But why the question? I was simply pointing out a situation where a respected memnber of the community, and candidate for the GCA Board, openly advertises reproductions that "look exactly like" the originals. In other words, no attempt is made at marking the product as a repro.

As a collector of M1Cs, I personally take offense that somebody would openly sell a repro of a pretty important part, without any marks that would identify it as such.

Another ad, from the same page, for the rear sight staking tool. Bill States:

"Many are restoring M1s without staking the rear sight
pinion’s hollow end, a dead give away of parts changing. Ordnance Part #5349914 is the authorized tool for staking the sight. Produced during 1943."

So, in other words, Bill is selling an original tool that could specifically deceive a potential buyer of a re-staked rear sighted rifle that the rifle is, in fact, untouched by anybody. NOTE: Bill is not deceiving anybody, but the user of the tool will intentionally use Bill’s tool to possibly deceive a buyer. So Bill may be complicit in the deception.

I’ve seen plenty of original rifles with rear sight lockbars that have been removed at some time in the past, so the initial premise of a “a dead give away of parts changing” is simply not correct. Check out any number of CMP rifles fresh from the crates…”

No different than the “stock humper”.

In the words of TiredRetired: (Many thanks...)

"... They (honest dealers) also do not facilitate others by assisting them to defraud and mislead others.
"

Now, I don’t know the banned member in any way. But he was simply selling a service and products, not unlike Bill or Tony or any of the other members here, It’s up to their customers to use the products in an ethical way. A humped stock with no marks to identify it as such is no different from a humped M82 eyepiece with no identifying marks.

Respectfully,

SN1

[Tired Retired]

Snapper,

The one thing I have no intention of doing is getting into a negative forum debate about he said/she said. I'll save that kind of conversation to another forum - not Military Surplus.... But I do think think I should clarify my own statements to better address your initial question....

Unlike you, I do not know Mr. Ricca, nor have I had the pleasure of doing business with him. I only know of him from his online posts, his web site and his reputation. I will not defend or attack someone coming to his defense out of reaction - they have their own reasons, but I am not them. I understand that he is well-respected and that is rare in today's world.

You do have some valid points in your reply. Your position and question would have probably been better received if you would have included them in your initial post. I, for one, was looking at your quote where Bill's advertisement clearly used the word "reproduction". I have no knowledge of the tool you were referring to in post #9 and I haven't had the funds or the spare time to expand into collecting Garands - yet.

However, I can see a clear difference between your explanation of Mr. Ricca's sales and advertisements and that of the furniture stamper. Based on the info you are providing, it appears to me that Mr. Ricca is selling a tool - and original tool - which is part of the authentic manufacturing of the collectable weapon. It does not appear to me to be like the multiple "fake" cartouche stamps which are continuously showing up on gunbroker. I actually got a laugh when I reviewed one guy's past sales - had sold over 100 "original" cartouche stamps! Did his grandfather own the WWII cartouche factory? Your point about Mr. Ricca's tool assumes that it will only be used by the buyer to deliberately attempt to fool everyone with forged stake marks. Yes, that would also be the natural assumtion about the cartouche stamps. Your added point is that it should actually comes down to the ethics and intentions of the buyer if he tries to deceive others. That is where the actions of the furniture stamper starts to differ...

I can go on line and buy a locksmith kit of master keys. Sold under the pretense that it will allow me to unlock the car doors for lawful owners who have accidentally locked themselves out. Actually after I buy the master key set, its up to me if its used legally and ethically. But let's say I run across an advertisement where someone offers to TEACH me to use key sets so that I can open doors without the car owner's permission - that I can get into the car and the owner would never know I was there. Additionally, I dont even have to buy the costly master key, he will loan it to me for $20 dollars.

In both the examples of of the master key "renter" and the furniture stamper, they offer a "service" which can only have but ONE end result - mislead victims as a direct result of the service. In the stamper's case, the stock owner would have to proactively announce to everyone who looked at the cartouche that it was not an original.... The only result of not announcing it would be a natural assumption that it was real.

I just do not see that being the sole situtation developing from either of the examples you are pointing out about Mr. Ricca's advertisements. A person can buy the tool to stake a newly fitted sight but NOT attempt to make it look orginal. They can put the tool in a display case. They can collect other original tools in order to build a complete set out of its own stand alone value. And yes, they can choose to use it to defraud. But there are several CHOICES the tool buyer can make. In the case of the stamper, a "service" is being purchased to deliberately place a misleading "correct" stamp onto the stock. ".... INCLUDE THE RIFLE MANUFACTURER AND SERIAL NUMBER SO I CAN APPLY WHICH STAMPS GO WITH WHICH SERIAL NUMBERS..."

Sir, the difference here is just too great for me to limit my understanding to your single, narrowly defined view point. Might you reconsider the points you object to??