Restoring the M1 Carbine

[Tired Retired]

Ok, I might as well stir the pot on this one too....

There are 4 different types of Carbine buyers/seller out there... The serious collector, the serious shooter and the people who haven't committed to either side. The 4th group? well...


The serious collector is focused mostly on the make-up of the carbine and its parts from a rarity point of view. They know how it was built and the parts that make it valueable per the market's demand. I tend to call them purest because they (rightly) feel that after market parts ruin a carbine and that modern adaptions (like red dot scopes) are sacrilege. They can tell you dates of manufacture, cartouche and inspector stamp meanings and other specifics that "humpers" try to imitate. They are a good bunch of guys, but they love history - not fakers.

Those that love to shoot the carbine are worried about having the tightest recoil plate they can find. They will lay aside a WWII walnut highwood I-stock with a type I band and choose a good, thick M2 potbelly with a tight type III band because it groups better.... Sure, they could swap for that type II slide that matches the manufacturer and the year of the receiver, but the type V that they have adds accuracy plus the park on it means it won't rust. They know how to make these old weapons come back alive and do what they were built to do - shoot!

Those who haven't committed? Well, they know that their carbine has got a good amount of wear on it, but would a re-park job keep it from rusting? They are wanting to know if their Inland 3/44 barrel could have possibly be original to their 1.5 mil QHMC receiver. And why is this wood on the stock so dark and dented? They expect the carbine to shoot clover leaf holes at 100 yards. And the questions go on - they just don't know if they want the original factory issue Inland or the recently rebuilt from Fulton.

Each group has its own values and the members of each group do great AS LONG AS THEY STAY WITHIN THEIR OWN GROUP...

Basically, collectors don't like what shooters do and shooters dont care for collector's view points....

Its that simple - so lets just break it down to simple terms... the arguement should be something along the line of "Taste Great!" versus "Less Filling!"

Oh, the 4th group.... they are the ones who try and cheat the other 3 groups... the humpers and liars and cheaters who mis-state weapons value and parts. They own fake cartouche stamps and seem ot have an endless supply of IP and Winchester parts that no one else can manage to locate...

So why do the 1st three groups argue between themselves when they should really be ganging up on the 4th group/????


Ok, said my peace - fire away, I got my blast shield up....

[imarangemaster]

Hahaha! Great post! I guess I am group two. I love to shoot them, have always had one since the mid-80s, carried it as an LE duty weapon, and use it as a house gun. In the spring after shoulder surgery I am starting shooting the carbine in matches. I laugh because I just bought a SA birch pot belly stock and have no plans of un-upgrading my great Underwood. The WW2 cartouched stock is going in the gun safe.

BUT.... I have half of an Inland rack grade $$$$ already stashed away to get one to retro (with repro).

[Jim Nasium]

O.K. Guys. I now pose these questions. ---- (I'm group I above, by the way).
?- What is "original"??
?- At what point would you change parts to make a carbine "original"?
?- Is "original" as manufactured, or is "original" a carbine with "original" (not fake) parts that have been replaced to make "original"? A restoration, if you please.
?- How would you describe rifles in all of the above mentioned categories?

I'm not being critical, just trying to get the "lay of the land".

Help me out on this one ---

jim

[Piercesaw]

I love the look of an original carbine- one that is either original or has been put back original. I admire a person who searches for all the right parts and is willing to pay what it takes these days. I also love the carbines that were arsenaled and updated. These weapons have the history as being there and used and rebuilt to be used again. Honor the men who used them. One question I have is that people get upset when parts are repro'ed. If some one came up with an original cartouch stamp- you know they are out there somewhere- would it be any different to use it as to replace a type 3 sight with a flip?

[imarangemaster]

I think the difference is deception and theft. If I get a rack grade Inland, and put a repro Type I band and repro flip sight on it, to use for WWII re-enacting, I am not trying to fool or cheat anyone.

With the stamps, people are faking and fleecing people selling by stuff that is not original for prices that are~ They are in effect stealing peoples money.

Some people only want an original "as issued" WW2 weapon. Very rare and extremely expensive.

Some people want to restore a carbine to "as issued": with the correct parts. It will never be "as issued" as has been pointed out, but still desirable. It is a correct exemplar. For the most part, I think the "thrill of the chase" is part of the fun. It would be for me. They are not trying to fool anyone, though.

Some people want to just restore the general appearance of a WW2 weapon, maybe for re-enacting or just for personal preference. This is a superficial makeover done inexpensively with repro parts.

The fakers are stealing money from the first two groups, and the dreaded stamps are their tools. I am not in the first two groups, and do not pretend to be. A thief who steals from someone else, however, is still a thief. Back when I had money, I considered "restoring" a carbine. The proliferation of fakes and my own lack of expertise made me decide against it.

To the august and knowledgeable collectors on this board, I salute you. It must kill you to see the humpers out there.

[Tired Retired]

Jim, I haven't had my coffee yet, but I will go ahead and take a stroll through the minefield of "original"....

Let's do this mathematically... let's see the factors... 10 different primary manufacturers.... 20 or more (total guess) of sub-contractors providing multiple parts to multiple primer contractors.... hmmm, let's multiple that by the number of updates (and drawing changes) ordered just in the 3 1/2 production years (subtract the post WWII updates)... add the cherry stocks and divide by the birch... hmmm, carry the M2 number forward.... oh, that’s simple... the answer is there were 6,000,000 "original" originals !!!!

See, that’s why Carbine addicts are so addicted. Each of the 6 million carbines were unique in their own way – and the way they were “mixmastered” is unique. The kicker is that because there are no long-lasting manufacturer records, no accessible unit issue records and no armory rebuild records, each one is a mystery of what “original” form it started out in.

Are there any originals? Only in the museums and in the unfired presentation models. There are no “originals” on Ebay, gunshows, CMP or even Uncle Billy’s garage-sale “bring backs”. Every one of the 6 million were issued, fired, broken into a hundred pieces during unit weapon cleanings and re-builds. Now, we all understand the term “correct”… but back to the how that individual receiver was made…. And is it really fair to have a receiver which may have seen duty in the European theater wearing a bolt which could have been used in the Pacific theater – oh, and lets don’t forget Korea and Vietnam! So its kinda like buying clothes from three different stores – your shirt is from Sears, your shoes are from Penny’s and your pants are from Macy’s. You’re dressed and it matches, but its not “original” and tailor-made.


Nope, none of my carbines are originals, they are not even “all correct”. They never could be. But they are full of mystery and they are full of fun.

I have been to over 25 different countries in my military career. I have been a few places that most Americans and even fewer military people ever get to go. I know some military people who manage to spend an entire career never leaving the US (it is possible). That’s kind of like the Carbines. Has mine seen the world, fought in famous battles, been the salvation that got a young man home to build a life and family? Or did mine get used at a training range or get locked away in reserve, never to have a shot fired from it in anger? I will never know… but I do know that “original” only happened once for each of them between 1942 and 1945.

But isn’t that what makes all this carbine addiction fun?????

[Piercesaw]

I think the difference is deception and theft. If I get a rack grade Inland, and put a repro Type I band and repro flip sight on it, to use for WWII re-enacting, I am not trying to fool or cheat anyone.

With the stamps, people are faking and fleecing people selling by stuff that is not original for prices that are~ They are in effect stealing peoples money.

Some people only want an original "as issued" WW2 weapon. Very rare and extremely expensive.

Not exactly my point. If someone were to take a CMP carbine and buy original parts and correct its "issued" state to one that appears original as built and someone had a original stamp would it be wrong to use it? None of the parts would be "original to that carbine or the stamp but it would appear to be. Personally I don't have a problem with late features and up dates. To me that is as issued in the particular carbines history.

[Jim Nasium]

Tired and Retired, I like your style!!
To partially answer some of the questions I posed.... From my own personal standpoint. And that, IHMO is what we all will have to decide.
Original
EXACTLY as from the manufacturer.. NO changes. And as Tired and Retired explains, that covers a lot of ground. With all the parts swapping that the makers did, before us "collectors" ever got wind of a carbine. No one could conclusively say that one as opposed to another is original. Now we can testify as to the provenance, like vet bring-backs. That is about as close as we can get.... Other than, as previously mentioned, presentation or other types of special awards. 6 million originals. Damn!!
Restoration Deciding when to "mess with" a carbine that is close to "original". Again, I believe a personal decision. For me, if only a couple of parts are "wrong", I'd go ahead. But I would present it as a "Restoration", and explain that to anyone should the rifle leave my collection. I do keep record of those. Three or four years ago, maybe more, I got three carbines from the CMP that were in their "original" white bags. Of course, they were not "original" as manufactured, cause they had been thru an arsenal rebuild. But they were mostly correct. I changed out the parts (no fakes) to make them "correct".
I now have some of the latest CMP rifles of different genre's. I'm inclined to leave them as is. Most of them are true mix-masters. Some receivers have redeeming factors such as line-outs, or special marks. That is primarily why I got them... Someone in the future may want to try to "restore" them, but not likely me.
I have (or had) only two carbines that I would bet were originals. Both came with provenance proof only. That, and looking at a gun, you can tell right away if it's been in a dark closet for a looooonnng time. I cannot and will not conclusively say they are original, and I have no actual proof. But a hands on inspection will help convince anyone interested.
Tired and Retired, as to the fourth group you mention. If you ever buy a gun (or anything) from me, you will know what it is. Warts and all.
I really enjoy the M 1 Carbine, and it's history... The many wars it defended the USA are testament to its usefullness and value...

Jim

[jimb16]

I'm in group 1/2! I collect the very rare carbines but shoot them too! I know some consider that a sacrilage; how dare I shoot them?. But that is what they were made for, and all have been shot before. I have 1 original and several restorations. I also have a number of arsenal rebuilds. Aside from an NPM/U that I'm selling, the most common carbines that I have are an M1A1 restoration and an UN-QUALITY. The rest of the collection is various line-outs. I also shoot these rifles and even compete at the Nationals with some of them. Like I said, I'm in group 1/2........

[Tired Retired]

Jimb,

I might consider purchasing your NPM/U from you if we can neogotiate a negative interest financing deal – the longer I take to pay it off, the less I owe!
Seriously, I'm having to buy a bigger safe before I buy another gun. What is the asking price for one like that anyway - just curious....