Whats it worth and would it be safe to shoot?

[PaleRider]

Does anybody know anything about antique muzzle loaders? I would like to own this one depending on the asking price, but only if there was a way I could have it "proofed" so I could hunt with it occasionally? Is there a way to determine the safety of these old guns? Sorry, its not a military musket, but I figured I'd find the most knowledgeable folks here.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=142564245

Information

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[rondog]

Looks like a good rifle, I don't see why it couldn't be fired.

[Wullie]

Sweet lookin old rifle. I agree with the statement above as to firing it.

If all you want to do is shoot muzzle loaders, you can the same fun for less money with modern repro stuff. They don't have the class and patina of a neat old gun like that, but they are as safe or more than likely safer and if you mess it up, you haven't screwed up a piece of history.

[Patrick Chadwick]

That looks like a very fine rifle. Very strong rifling. The deep grooves are typical of a rifle for shooting a patched ball, not a minie rifle. If I had it in my hands I would do 4 things.

1) As it is a damascened barrel, a possible weakness is that, if the barrel is allowed to become pitted, the slightly different chemical properties of the iron/steel layers can cause delamination. This can best be checked by an ultrasonic test, if you are the worrying kind.

However, this rifle shows no sign of rust pitting, and the barrel has a substantial wall thickness, so I, personally, would not worry if a visual inspection of the bore was OK.

2) The bore should be lapped to make the surface as smooth as possible. How smooth depends on your patience.

3) The muzzle is not recessed, and the edges are no longer sharp, which will spoil the accuracy, so I would take off a gnat's whisker with a crowning cutter. Just enough so that you see a ring of bright metal. A dab with a commercial bluing solution and no-one will know that it wasn't always like that.

4) Remove the old piston and keep it as an antique. Don't forget, a piston is a consumable item, so it will not be the first one in that rifle anyway. Clean the ignition channel. Fit a modern piston.Test fire with a very mild load (about 40 gns of Swiss No. 3/FFg) and a patched ball. The ball/patch combination should be such that, after using a starter to get the patched ball seated, you can PUSH the ball down the barrel. If you have to hammer it down, it is too tight. And it only requires a few grains to drive a patched ball out of a barrel, so there is no danger of the ball sticking because of a weak load.

5) Enjoy!

There are quite a few people who fire old muzzle loaders. The problem is not safety, but that originals are so expensive that you will not want to expose your treasure to the rough-and tumble of the typical range. But it was made to shoot, not to hang on a wall, so shoot it! As you are a beginer with muzzle loaders, I earnestly recommend that you join a club with an active muzzle-loading contingent, as that is not a beginner's rifle. Help from experienced muzzle-loaders will save you a lot of trial and error. This posting can only give you the barest essentials.

Patrick

[jmoore]

.

4) Remove the old piston and keep it as an antique. Don't forget, a piston is a consumable item, so it will not be the first one in that rifle anyway.
Patrick

By "piston" do you refer to what the damnyankees call the "nipple" AKA the " percussion cap seat"?

[tiriaq]

Looks to be fine rifle. Could well be an excellent shooter. That looks like the original crown at the muzzle, shouldn't need any alterations. Only reason to replace the nipple would be if it was damaged.

[PaleRider]

Or some reasonable offer I should make? I have experience with trapdoors US muskets, but this is my first foray into antique sporting arms.

[Patrick Chadwick]

"piston" is, of course, the German word for "nipple". At least as far as percussion firearms are concerned!

Patrick

PS Price here would be 1xxx euros. Higher if by a maker listed in Stoeckel. Much higher if a famous maker.

[gew8805]

Or some reasonable offer I should make? I have experience with trapdoors US muskets, but this is my first foray into antique sporting arms.

It is a beaytiful rifle in a high state of condition, I would expect it to sell for anywhere between $750 and $1,250. If you want it as a shooter, under no circumstances should you shoot it without having the barrel unbreached for a good look. While it may well be in excellent condition, it is still best to be sure to protect not only your investment but also your life and the health and well being of anyone standing near by. Can it be shot without unbreaching? Sure, but why take the chance? Take it to a qualified and experienced gunsmith to get his opinion. While it is unbreached, it can be cleaned and examined properly and, very important, the barrel can be slugged so that you know the diameter ball that will be needed as well as the rifling's rate of twist. If no one in your area is qualified of doing the work, there are several people that you can ship it to so the work can be done properly. If there is erosion at the breach, not an uncommon problem that will cause a ball to shed it's patch when firing, destroying accuracy, the barrel can be relined.

Also, if you buy it and want to shoot it, be careful to protect the original finish, the gun's value is tied up strongly with originality, both internally and externally. If you plan on hard or frequent use, best to buy a reproduction, it will be cheaper in the long run. I would expect this rifle to sell for a good price for the seller and the buyer (as a collector) as well.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

I wouldn't assume it was damascus as this is VERY rare in rifles. Even if it was, it was proofed when MADE and the barrel would (short of severe rust or a round trip to Mercury) NEVER be "less strong" than when it was made.

I would probably take it to Dan Whitacre and have him re-rifle it on his rifling machine. Otherwise, I woujld not buy anything with poor rifling.

Whitacre's Machine Shop