Need Help to ID Lend Lease marks Rem Rand 1911A1

[ridecontrol]

I found this at a show this past weekend.

Please find attached photos. I noticed on a number of Lend Lease guns.."not english made" stamped on them or "released" ..This pice just has a mark I would like to ID on the frame and one the slide. The bbl is also marked. Can anyone help with when this gun was released or returned?...Why no "Not english Made" or "released" on it?
Is there a way to find out when it returned to the US and how?

Thanks in advance for any info

Ken in Ohio
garandman@woh.rr.com
937 748 4430

Information

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[Johnny Peppers]

In 1955 the British proof laws were changed, and the requirement for the NOT ENGLISH MAKE was dropped at that time. The size of the bore, cartridge length, as well as well as the proof charge was added to the barrel in 1955.
As far as I know the marking with the release date was used for only one year.

[Duane Hansen]

Looks like a very nice Lend-Lease pistol. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

[jmoore]

Just as a reminder- Any firearms that are moved THROUGH GB must also be proofed. So British proof marks may only indicate a surplus arms dealer had them in Britain on their way to another market.

[Johnny Peppers]

That is very true, but it is a well known fact that most of the 1911A1 pistols Lend-Leased to England were never used or used very lightly. Unless used as shooters by their new owners when purchased in the 1950's they remain in virtually new condition, and the pistol shown is no exception. England was the largest recipient of the 1911A1 pistol, so where did all the other like new 1911A1's with British proofs come from by way of England?
The M1 Rifles Lend-Leased to England are in a known serial number range, and like the 1911A1 pistols, came back in excellent and original condition. There are post WWII M1 Rifles with British proofs, but since the Lend-Lease Act was cancelled in 1945 we know that they could not have been Lend-Lease.

[Scott Gahimer]

Just as a reminder- Any firearms that are moved THROUGH GB must also be proofed. So British proof marks may only indicate a surplus arms dealer had them in Britain on their way to another market.

There are known M1911A1 Lend-Lease examples without the "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT 1952" marking. Two examples that come to mind are the 1515 Canadian L-L 1943 Colts and some of the (1250) Oct 21, 1944 Ithacas listed with a destination of War Shipping Administrator c/o British Ministry of War Transport Pier 97, North River New York, NY.

None of the Canandian L-L pistols I've seen have the 1952 markings. The Ithacas were simply released in different years (not all at once).

There were numerous countries that received lend-leased pistols. Only the ones released by the British Govt. in 1952 have the 1952 markings. Nearly all the .45s sold off as surplus in the 1950s were purchased by the same arms distributor in England, and therefore received the commercial proofs to be offered for sale.

I don't believe the commercial proofs were required to be applied to arms returned to their country of origin, but apparently the distributor didn't know that or simply chose to have all the pistols proofed in order to be able to sell them anywhere.

[Johnny Peppers]

When the Lend-Lease small arms were released by the British government for commercial sale, they had to go through one of the proof houses before being sold by the government.
The British government even had to proof any British made military weapons released for commercial sale before they could be sold commercially, as like the Lend-Lease weapons, none had been commercially proofed while in military hands.
This is a British No.4 Mk I with 1955 proofs.

[jmoore]

The government release proof marks are certainly distinct from the "regular" commercial proofs, its just that I've seen all sorts of odd things w/ british proofs that people claim were government issue when they really weren't. Didn't mean to distract from the above pistol, sorry!

ETA Sorry about that- meant to just say "release marks" w/o the proof bit-D'oh!

[Johnny Peppers]

The government release proof marks are certainly distinct from the "regular" commercial proofs, its just that I've seen all sorts of odd things w/ british proofs that people claim were government issue when they really weren't. Didn't mean to distract from the above pistol, sorry!

The release mark is not a proof. It, like the NOT ENGLISH MAKE, were simply notations that went along with the actual proofs. There may be other dates, but the only release marks I remember seeing are dated 1952. I have a feeling it was quickly realized that it would be too much hassle to change the release date every year, as the commercial sales of military weapons went on for several years. Also, it was not a requirement of the Proof Act. As stated previously, there are 1911A1 pistols in known Lend-Lease serial number ranges with pre-1955 proofs with and without the release date.
The British proofs had nothing to do with military issue. Simply, any firearm made in a country that did not have a reciprocal proof agreement with England had to be proofed before being sold commercially in England. Military weapon proofing of small arms normally did not qualify as commercial proofing. It is not uncommon to find German Lugers with British proofs, which is simply an indication of being sold in England.

[ridecontrol]

This Is A 1.577 Million Rem Rand....does It Fit Into The Lend Lease Serial Number Range?