Khyber Pass build?

[topaz]

Thank You .That Lee- Enfield Rifle is a good example of very very poor workmanship. And its hard for me to understand how some thing that bad can pass in a gun shop or show.(serial no.)?are their any.. You can just look at that and tell its junk and not safe to fire.I guess everyone in the (KP) thinks there a gun smith. Good example.

[topaz]

Thank You

[TheDoubleD]

I really hate Deactivating guns, but if ever there was a case for permanent deactivation, it is the gun in the first post. The knuckle seat has been cut down and and shooting this rifle would be extremely hazardous. It's like cutting down the lcking lugs on a bolt rifle.

I have a lot of questions about the serviceability of the counterfeits; metallurgy and manufacturing methods are questionable. The long history of gun manufacture in this KP region doesn't involve quality. There is no record of these guns being made for anything but bazaar sales.

So far on the auction boards, on the discussion boards, and at gunshows I have seen three different type of these counterfeit rifles.

1. Copies of original rifles, of unknown pedigree, probably KP made and marked to look like British rifle with spurious markings- Back wards "N" rifles.



2. Rifles of better quality that appear to be correct Martini's in form and manufacture probably European, obviously remarked and assembled to appear to be Genuine British Military rifles.



3. Rifles that are obviously new made probably coming out of Pakistan and sold by various surplus dealers as original arsenal rebuilds and with very obvious fake markings.



I have all three type of rifles. I will be doing some shooting tests this summer on these rifles, after I re work and repair them so they will shoot. Rifle #1 shoots some times, Rifle #2 shoots all the time. Rifles #3 shot once.

I have to rechamber all three rifles to take SAAMI spec head space gauges so I can do my test and measurements.

I use to say, that there might be an interest to collector for these rifles. No more.

Old models of rifle type #1 indeed might be a representative collectible. But new made versions of Number 1 are made to deceive and defraud; to meet market demand. They are made to cheat NATO GI's, who don't know better, out of their money.

We know the originals carried these bad markings such as the backwards N were not knowingly made that way. Now to meet market demand it's done on purpose--a counterfeit counterfeit? or, how about a replica Counterfeit!

Rifle type #2 are the most despicable. They appear to be genuine commercial or made for other governments rifle. The markings are scrubbed off and bogus British markings applied. Perfectly good historically valuable rifles are defaced and destroyed to make a bogus rifle, and again to defraud or deceive GI's out of their money.

Rifle #3 wouldn't bother me that much if they were represented and marked replica and given modern and true markings. Unfortunately they are represented British Arsenal rebuilds, a misrepresentation.

Now fraud, deception, and misrepresentation are fancy words, to politely say steal.

There is one other deception-rationalization. Buy these as representational for inclusion in a collection is rationalization. I bought a fake gun and now instead saying I got fooled I will rationalize.

The three I have were knowingly purchased to be tested-perhaps to destruction for the book I am writing..that's my rationalization.

[topaz]

Thank you DoubleD for a quick and may I say, a helpful education on the three great examples you have posted. I happen to agree with your views on the weapons that are coming out of the KP these last couple of years. There are somethings though that you must have to agree with. Most weapons made in the KP today are crude, not safe to fire, and really nothing to look at. And I agree those are the ones for sale in the bazaars. But there are families that have been in the gun business for generations in that part of the world, and they can make a copy, for example the AK47. And they are able to withstand the pressure from today's bullets. Most of these weapons are used by the rebels and the home grown terrorists and they don't seem to be having any problems with these weapons, as crude as they may be. Most of the steel and the by products that they use, whether you feel indifferent about it or not, is probably supplied by the super powers(salvage). So you have guns that work, and you have guns that don't. It is certainly a mixed bag. But you cannot deny the fact that there are certain families in that tribal area that made weapons for generations. What you say in your article is very true and very informative, but I also believe there is the other side of the coin. The Mexicans made copies of the Colts and Winchesters for years and even though they were crude they were still functional. Thank you very much. I hope we helped each other out.

[TheDoubleD]

The crudity of these weapons is not my issue. Some of these are pretty sophisticated, some are indeed crude.

My point is the counterfeiting. These arms are not made for the arms market, they are made for the curio market. The intent is not to build a weapon for hunting or war. None of the guns I have seen so far work reliably enough to be given any serious consideration for those purposes. The intent is to provide a deceptive product, fully deceptive.

A couple of years ago while writing back an forth to the fellow who acquired the two KP rifles I have, he told us how the guns in the Bazaars changed from week to week reflecting the public conversations we were having on the internet. For example the #2 rifle above has ICI on it. First the mark is IC1 and second it is a carbine marking not a rifle marking. With in a week of our discussion on this, these marks started disappearing on the rifles in the bazaar. When asked about it, the arms dealers said they read the internet also. When somebody reported finding a particularly uncommon BSA, the following week these BSA started showing up all over the bazaars..

Take a look at those markings on #2, They are superior to the marks on original guns. I don't know if they are laser etched or CNC. Who would believe those are fake. I did an acid etch to see if there were any marks that had been scrubbed. The Afghani crest had been scrubbed and the British marks applied. This fake rifle is worth 1/4 or less what it would be if left as originally marked. Probably even more since most of the Afghani guns were carbines and very few were rifles.

Was this done to provide arm to insurgents or rebels, no! It was done because the GI's didn't want to buy the Afghani rifles because they didn't know what they were. But they would buy British rifles.

Years ago, when these rifle were current, no doubt there some of these guns made for the local arms markets. I believe my backwards N rifle may in fact be one of these. That's purely speculative on my part. If you can truly identify one of those rifle's it might be worth something to a legitimate knowledgeable collector, maybe.

I also have no doubt many original rifles were repaired with locally made crude parts.

But this is no longer true. True enough the insurgents and rebels will use what ever they can get there hands on, but if the choice if between and AK and MK II, what do you think they will choose. These guns are not being made to supply the Taliban.

These rifle are being made now to sell to the GI's. The Afgani were not selling these as copies or replicas but as real.

That is the axe I am grinding the counterfeiting. The purpose is fraud-theft and we are wrong to encourage it with this rationalization.

[c12dat]

Hello to All,

2. Rifles of better quality that appear to be correct Martini's in form and manufacture probably European, obviously remarked and assembled to appear to be Genuine British Military rifles.

DoubleD,

This rifle could possibly be an Afghan Kabul Arsenal made Martini Henry. The original Afghan crest have been buffed off and replaced with the fake Enfield markings. This rifle had serial number in Dari stamped in several locations. The locals would crudely buff them off and replace them with the War Dept arrow/WD. On the other side of the receiver, I bet that you have an inspector stamp of (crown/B/32) or (crown/V.R./crossed flags/2P) or (crown/E/1) or all three. If you take apart the internal parts and they have Dari serial numbers on them, this would indicate that the rifle is a Kabul Arsenal Martini-Heny. You may be able to see a set of Dari serial number on the side of the trigger without taking everything apart.

The rifle that started this thread is a Kabul Arsenal Martini-Henry .303 with its markings buffed off. There is an Afghan bayonet specially made to fit this rifle. The bayonet is similar to the Pattern 1888 bayonet, but with a 16 inch blade. A British Pattern 1888 will mount on this rifle but the muzzle ring will extend past the end of the barrel.

v/r
c12dat

[c12dat]

Duplicate posting deletion.

[TheDoubleD]

Hello to All,

2. Rifles of better quality that appear to be correct Martini's in form and manufacture probably European, obviously remarked and assembled to appear to be Genuine British Military rifles.

DoubleD,

This rifle could possibly be an Afghan Kabul Arsenal made Martini Henry. The original Afghan crest have been buffed off and replaced with the fake Enfield markings. This rifle had serial number in Dari stamped in several locations. The locals would crudely buff them off and replace them with the War Dept arrow/WD. On the other side of the receiver, I bet that you have an inspector stamp of (crown/B/32) or (crown/V.R./crossed flags/2P) or (crown/E/1) or all three. If you take apart the internal parts and they have Dari serial numbers on them, this would indicate that the rifle is a Kabul Arsenal Martini-Heny. You may be able to see a set of Dari serial number on the side of the trigger without taking everything apart.

The rifle that started this thread is a Kabul Arsenal Martini-Henry .303 with its markings buffed off. There is an Afghan bayonet specially made to fit this rifle. The bayonet is similar to the Pattern 1888 bayonet, but with a 16 inch blade. A British Pattern 1888 will mount on this rifle but the muzzle ring will extend past the end of the barrel.

v/r
c12dat

I think you are absolutely correct. I did an acid etch on the side and it appears that the large arsenal stamp is on the side of that gun. The problem is the the etch is not clear enough to be sure.

The Kabul Arsenal rifles are good rifles, it's a shame they were mutilated.

[topaz]

c12dat,Welcome to the forum... Thank you for this information, I learn something every day. I know some where else some one got in trouble for doubting. It might have been another forum.

[c12dat]

c12dat,Welcome to the forum... Thank you for this information, I learn something every day. I know some where else some one got in trouble for doubting. It might have been another forum.

I have friends who served with me here and they get their info off various web sites on the internet. They call all antique rifles here KP made. Yes, I have seen some KP Martini's for sale here, but the quality on them are just awful.

Attached are photos of the Kabul Royal Arsenal markings on the Martini-Henry. This arsenal also made bayonets, swords, and kukri.

v/r
Dat Nguyen