1911 & M1 Carbine: Going strong?

[phil441]

Just like beauty, "mean" is in the eye of the beholder.
AK's aren't seen as too friendly to many who've watched the news the last few years.

[imarangemaster]

Maybe that's it. The AK was Chinese. For about a year, I carried a seized XM177E2 with an 11.5 inch barrel from the arms room, and used that as a trunk gun. The Sheriff did not object to that, though in my mind it was as mean and evil looking as the AK.

Apparently others thought it was mean looking too. I had a suspect wet himself when he looked down the barrel of it on a warrant arrest. I was first in the door when we breached it, and he was standing in the front room. He was a Hell's Angel, three striker that was trading drugs for sex to Junior High kids. We had a no-knock warrant, as he was know to be armed and had priors for murder. I was the Investigator handling the case and wanted to be first in, just in case... but that's another story.

Anyway one of the SWAT Sgts. saw it on that raid, and being outranked, he got it assigned to him shortly after that. Once again, I went back to the trusty carbine!

[INLAND44]

Just like beauty, "mean" is in the eye of the beholder.
AK's aren't seen as too friendly to many who've watched the news the last few years.

But they are seen as friendly to literally millions of US owners. I think we all know better than to attach stigma to gun regardless of it's appearance.

[INLAND44]

Hmmm, interesting. A 30 carbine Kalashnikov. I am a huge fan of the AK. My everyday house/farm weapon (PDW?) might be my faithful and reliable Underwood M1 carbine with 110 grain RP JSPs. If it was serious zombies roaming the countryside, though, it would be my 7.62x39 Saiga restored to original, intended form, loaded with 123 grn HPs.



Talk about reliable in the extreme, here is an article where a guy abused a cheap Romanian WASR AK with mud, ice, water, dirt, and thousands of rounds fired without cleaning. Interesting reading.

Firearm Review: Romanian AK-47 Variant, the WASR-10 - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

As for the Israeli .30 carbine bullpup, it was the "Magal" and was based on the micro-Galil. They tried it for several years, but pulled it out of service in 2001 due to various malfunctions.
http://www.personaldefenceweapons.co...pdws.htm#Magal

Apparently they are still playing around with the .30 Carbine in the new HEZI as well as the modified MAGAL.

[jjroth]

have had no desire for either a AK or SKS.

Am satisfied with my Carbine & 1991A1.

Do I need the foreign firearms???



The real question on the Carbine is why it never was considered using the .45ACP & standard GI Mags??
That would simplified supply and training and we all know the effectiveness of the .45!

[jmoore]

The real question on the Carbine is why it never was considered using the .45ACP & standard GI Mags??
That would simplified supply and training and we all know the effectiveness of the .45!

I think the original intent was to have a light recoiling, light weight weapon with which it would be easy to make hits out to 100yds. But then they figured if if 100 is good then 250 would be better... I think we're better off w/ the way things worked out. Just imagine what would have happened if w/ just a little further "out of the box" thinking that the carbine had been set up around a high speed .223" projectile....It would probably still be in service! (Along w/ 15 more years of people crying: That cartridge isn't fit for combat duty!)

[imarangemaster]

Despite popular MYTHS, the 30 carbine round IS far better than the 45 ACP. I have shot through both sides of a GI issue PAGST kevlar helmet with the carbine, when 45 and 9 mm did not even go through one side. Others here have replicated the "Chinese thick clothing not going through" argument and proved it false, and I have personally killed a 175+ lb deer at over 75 yards with one with one shot. The 45 ACP would not have done that. Most of the bad rap comes from the M2 in Korea and poor fire discipline. If you don't hit the target, you won't stop it. Bugsy Moran is dead from being shot with a carbine, and the several WW2 GIs I talked to who used it correctly loved it.

I am not saying it should be a main battle rifle, but it does excel at what it was designed for: PDW under 150 yards.

[INLAND44]

Despite popular MYTHS, the 30 carbine round IS far better than the 45 ACP. I have shot through both sides of a GI issue PAGST kevlar helmet with the carbine, when 45 and 9 mm did not even go through one side. Others here have replicated the "Chinese thick clothing not going through" argument and proved it false, and I have personally killed a 175+ lb deer at over 75 yards with one with one shot. The 45 ACP would not have done that. Most of the bad rap comes from the M2 in Korea and poor fire discipline. If you don't hit the target, you won't stop it. Bugsy Moran is dead from being shot with a carbine, and the several WW2 GIs I talked to who used it correctly loved it.

I am not saying it should be a main battle rifle, but it does excel at what it was designed for: PDW under 150 yards.

Exactly so. Energy is nearly 3X that of the .45. Use a softpoint or hollow point and you have an incredible PDW round.

[jmoore]

So, why the lack of "official" interest in bringing the cartridge back? Or a modern LIGHTWEIGHT carbine- not the current 7 1/2 to 9 lb M4a1 or P90. For police use its probably better, as well, non-front line troops can always appreciate a few pounds less gear. Short barreled 5.56s just don't make a huge amount of ballistic sense. Logistically, more so, but anymore specialization is no big deal.

[imarangemaster]

I was talking to a guy at the Benning AMTU armory. He said that the main problem with the M855/SS109 is the short barrel. He said it works well (yawing and fragmenting) out of the 20 inch barrel. Out of the 14.5 M4 barrel, the velocity is insufficient past 75-80 yards to reliably yaw OR break up and fragment. The 5.56mm Open Tip, 77 grain MK262 Mod1 (from Black Hills) that they developed for the SAW works very well out to 150-200 yards even from the M4. It is an easy fix, but he says the brass is fighting it.