1911 & M1 Carbine: Going strong?

[imarangemaster]

I was thinking about some of my favorite firearms: 1911 (though I don't own one at the moment) and M1 Carbine (of which I own one and have a second on the way!). The 1911 has been going strong for 100 years. It is still a first class sidearm and fight stopper. The carbine has been going strong for almost 70 years: It is still an excellent weapon, especially if used in the PDW role that it was designed. It is as good at it now as it was then when it comes to under 100 yard Personal Defense Weapons. Lets even consider my other favorite, the Kalashnikov. It has 62 years under its belt, and is (IMHO) the best ASSAULT RIFLE ever made. There are between 75 and 80 million of them still in service around the world, even at conservative estimates. Even the venerable M16 has over 60 years since the first full auto AR15 project ARPA days of the late 50s.

None of these weapons has changed substantially since their inception 50-100 years ago! Our martial weapons seem to be at, what is at least a temporary zenith when it comes to "Grunt" primary weapons.

Look back in history. In 1869/1870, the primary US martial long arm was either a percussion .58 caliber rifle musket or a "modern" Allin conversion in either .58 rimfire or 50-70 Government. Imagine fast forward 70 years (the length of time the carbine and almost the Kalashnikov have been going strong) to 1940. A soldier with that weapon would be a joke. Look at the 1851 .36 caliber Colt's Navy revolver. Flash forward to 1951, and it is not even any longer competitive, let alone first rate after 100 years like the 1911.

In an era when the practical and useful life before the obsolescence of most consumer goods (cameras, computers, phones, etc) gets shorter and shorter, these martial firearms go against the trend and have astounding longevity of viability and practicality. Even other martial firearms like the M1 Garand or it's improved offspring, the M14, or the FN FAL have this same longevity. It seems once we reached reliable semi and full automatic firearms, we peaked quickly. None of the mentioned firearms (1911, M1 Carbine, AK, M16, M14, etc.) have changed in any major way. Changes have been superficial: either in ways of manufacturing, some changes in materials, or externals such as stocks and optics.

If you think about it, it is testimony to the vision and skills of designers like John Browning, John C. Garand, Eugene Stoner, and Michael Kalashnikov.

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[rondog]

And that's why so many of us love those guns! Why they have such loyal followings.

I gots mine!

[imarangemaster]

I had a Remington Rand 1911A1 in 99% finish, with box. Sold it about 8 or 9 years ago when I was out on disability retirement. It will be my next acquisition when I can afford it. Won't be a Colt or a GI, as I don't foresee having $1,000 to spend. Will probably be an Auto Ordnance, Springfield Armory or Charles Daly.

[INLAND44]

Of all the modern weapons you mentioned, the the Carbine is the one that is the closest to being completely out of service with any military in the world. It basically exists now as a collectible, much like the Luger. Every one of the other modern weapons are currently in active military service. In fact, they are all being used by U.S. forces, including the AK (not issued but condoned for certain operators). The 1911 serves now only as the MEU-SOC 'M45'. It's basically a 'practical' with better sights, ring hammer, beaver tail, Nowlin internals, medium-length adjustable aluminum trigger, Pachmayr grips and 8-round mag with base pad. There aren't many of them, but they are issued. The Springfield Armory 'Operator MC' is basically it. They used M1911A1 frames until they ran out, now they buy slides and frames from Caspian and Springfield. Most of them are made at Quantico at the Precision Weapons group. They use the 1911 platform because no other pistol can hold up to the amount of shooting they do in training.
Here's my Taurus which looks like a MEU-SOC.

[jmoore]

Oddly enough, I think that if someone brought out a new style weapon w/ a revamped/ renamed 30 carbine cartridge as the latest and greatest PDW that sales would be brisk! The regular action w/ modern sight options and synthetic furniture would be OK, but I think an FN P90 in .30 cal would be much more useful than that 5.7mm round- if armor piercing is req., then just use sabots or some such- probably would be even faster than the 5.7 w/ more base area to push on. Otherwise, there's tons of development in good expanding projectiles. All the 30 carbine really needs is a good facelift-in either the weapon or the cartridge.

I think the ultimate success of the round would be assured of it were able to be hot-rodded a bit, but that's not a good idea unless it was changed just enough to not work in the old weapons.

[USSR]

My humble effort to bring the M1 Carbine into the 21st century.

Don

[INLAND44]

Oddly enough, I think that if someone brought out a new style weapon w/ a revamped/ renamed 30 carbine cartridge as the latest and greatest PDW that sales would be brisk! The regular action w/ modern sight options and synthetic furniture would be OK, but I think an FN P90 in .30 cal would be much more useful than that 5.7mm round- if armor piercing is req., then just use sabots or some such- probably would be even faster than the 5.7 w/ more base area to push on. Otherwise, there's tons of development in good expanding projectiles. All the 30 carbine really needs is a good facelift-in either the weapon or the cartridge.

I think the ultimate success of the round would be assured of it were able to be hot-rodded a bit, but that's not a good idea unless it was changed just enough to not work in the old weapons.

I like this idea, but the round is fine as-is except defensive ammo needs to be hollowpoints, and they are already made. I've always thought the .30 Carbine round was mediocre for a rifle or carbine, but would make for a great sub-gun. Evidently the Army agreed, hence the M2. The Israelis have/had a bullpup set-up for the M2 Carbine that looks extremely interesting. I wouldn't have known what it was except for the appearance of the barrel and the 30-rd mag. We discussed it on 'Battle Rifles' a few years ago - somebody knew what they called it but I don't recall what it was. As a home defense gun, I think the .30 Carbine is nearly perfect, particularly in a HP. All it would take to get some sales on a new gun is to come out with a hot new shorty carbine or bullpup like jmoore suggests for a PDW. Then, ammo would get cheaper as more was made in response to the gun sales.

ETA: I thought of something; imagine a PDW based on a Kalashnikov, but in .30 Carbine. It would be compact and have a folding stock, very much like my AMD65.

[jmoore]

Any number of ways to approach the weapon side- just so long as its short and 5lb- 2 1/4kg or less in weight. Reliable feed of any projectile type and modern sights are also must-haves.

BTW The two downsides to Don's carbine are:

1. The EO Tech sight is just a bit too heavy, otherwise they're pretty darn nice!
2. Stock Carbines don't always do well w/bullet profiles much different than the original RN FMJs- Sometimes, but not always,isn't near good enough!

Inland44's idea has merit on the reliability concept, but weight, ergonomics, and sights all leave something to be desired.

Good inputs! If y'all fine tune a bit, and get folk involved, the 30 Carbine may just come back w/ suprising swiftness. Some needs to first field the "modernized" cartridge and get some feedback. 90-100gr bonded core "ballistic tips" anyone? 2200-2100 fps? If its whitetail deer capable at 75yds or so I'd jump on it!
How about a 60gr 0.118" tungsten penetrator in a plastic sabot at around 2900-3000 fps?

[imarangemaster]

Hmmm, interesting. A 30 carbine Kalashnikov. I am a huge fan of the AK. My everyday house/farm weapon (PDW?) might be my faithful and reliable Underwood M1 carbine with 110 grain RP JSPs. If it was serious zombies roaming the countryside, though, it would be my 7.62x39 Saiga restored to original, intended form, loaded with 123 grn HPs.



Talk about reliable in the extreme, here is an article where a guy abused a cheap Romanian WASR AK with mud, ice, water, dirt, and thousands of rounds fired without cleaning. Interesting reading.

Firearm Review: Romanian AK-47 Variant, the WASR-10 - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

As for the Israeli .30 carbine bullpup, it was the "Magal" and was based on the micro-Galil. They tried it for several years, but pulled it out of service in 2001 due to various malfunctions.
http://www.personaldefenceweapons.co...pdws.htm#Magal

[jmoore]

More thoughts:

ColtAR-15a2 lightweight gov't carbine and M1a1 both weigh 6lbs, w/in an ounce or so. Its gotta weigh well less than an AR platform, even if the M1a1 is more compact.
How much does the iron M1a1 buttplate weigh? Could several ounces be saved by using aluminum or high strengh polymer?
How much less does a type two band weigh compared to a type three?
How about a polymer trigger housing versus steel? Works in the new 10-22s.
Replace the rear sight w a polymer BUIS similar to an AR. Also mod the front to take AR sight posts for zeroing and night sight capability. Minor weight differential allowed!
Or replace the rear sight w/ a DR Optic style red dot- or the new armored Trijicon variant.
Better mags? These seem to be a weak point many times.

On the ammo side:

Keep the ammo in same specs but run either Pow'r Ball bullets from CorBon or Hornady Critical Defense 32 ACP bullets w/ a round nose. Bullet weight ~70gr and as much velocity as the platform will take! Max effective range only needs to be 100yd or so- 200 is more than the average civilian needs to deal with, or even non-front line M&P types.
Why bother w/ a detaching sabot when a 25-60gr penetrator could be molded integral to a solid polymer bullet? Concentricity is the main concern, so it costs a bit more, so what? This isn't intended to be a primary war fighting tool, but a special defensive weapon.