SEDGLEY M1903 BARRELS, good & bad

[45B20]

Old Salt’s A3 barrel problem brought up the subject of Sedgley M1903 barrels. I have some experiences with these barrels and some questions maybe some of you can help with.

I first encountered M1903 Sedgley barrels in late 1968 when Art Roberts showed me 3 or 4 when I visited his home in Fall Church, VA. This was the first I knew that Sedgley made issue type M1903 barrels. Art said he got them in a trade with the marines at the Quantico Museum

I first encountered large numbers of Sedgley Barrels in the early 70s, when I was involved in two large rebuild projects of M1903s and A3s. One consisted of a little more than a thousand rifles for which the owner had acquired more than enough new barrels and most of the other parts new or reparked. He had at this one location at least 1000 Sedgley barrels, still in their original crates with the USMC inspection papers inside each. Bill Ricca asked me to send him a copy of the inspections paper that came in the crates, perhaps he could post it.

At the time I had never heard the ‘bent/straighten barrel stories‘, but I knew of Sedgley. So I was very curious as to the quality of these barrel and pushed bore gages (0.297”& 0.299”) thru a lot of these to check uniformity of the bore dia., I never encountered a kinked barrel. I installed from 200 to 300 of these on 03 receivers, IIRC, all required finishing chambering. I installed new two groove barrels on the approx. 400 03A3 receivers. All test fired.

A year or so later, during another M1903 rebuild for the same individual. I saw more crates representing 3000 or more Sedgley barrels and helped open some of these crates and remove approx another 1000 barrels. Without digging out the paperwork, IIRC each crate held 12 barrels, all of the barrels I saw had the USMC stamp on them and were dated 43 or 44, however I do not remember any USMC or Navy Dept. marks on the outside of the crates. I asked the owner if that was all the Sedgley barrels he had and he said, no, that there were tons more. More details than that, either he did not say or I do not remember. Most of my involvement in this rebuild project was to train lower paid individuals to do the work I did.

I am not sure where this individual acquired these barrels, but I do know he was getting much of his stuff from Tooele. I was later told that he went on to rebuild at least another 2000 to 3000 M1903s (maybe more) using these barrels.

In the mid 80s I encountered my first kinked, (bent/straighten, whatever you wish to call them) Sedgley barrel. As best as I can remember, I had about 6 or 7 come thru my shop. The owners were shooting them and brought them in with complains of inaccuracy. I test fired each of these rifles and found no sign of excessive pressure. I also fired some from the bench, groups were almost non-existence with some key holing, all failed to pass a 0.295” bore gage. I looked at the inside of these barrels and checked with a modified drill rod as best as I could. The obstructions appeared to be elliptical, as if the barrel had been crushed at that point. I do not remember any marks on the outside of the barrels that would indicate they had been crushed, bent, straighten, could have been, I just don’t remember.

These kinked Sedgley barrels that came thru my shop were all on M1903s that had been re-parked. with a very uniform color overall and a shade darker that the ones from the rebuild programs. The kinked barrel M1903s that I could trace, all originated from Petrero Ave. Whither all kinked Sedgleys came from that location I do not know.

At the time I asked some people I knew in the SA parts trade were these kinked barrels were coming from. Two individuals came up with variations on the same story, “The Philippines“. Lonnie Lambert came up with a photo he claimed to be of these barrels as they laid in a ’warehouse’, all in a huge pile, bent at about a 30 degree angle, with a nice radius to the bend. I asked Lonnie who brought them into the U.S. and all he said was, “you know, that LA crowd.”

Where did this story about Sedgley, bent then straighten barrels come from?? Does anyone have original information about these damaged/defective barrels?? All I have or have heard is hearsay or he said/they said. How many of you actually own or owned one?? Do you know were it originated from?? Did any one handle one of these barrels that was kinked and had never been installed on a receiver???

Interestingly enough, the 43/44 dated barrels fall under the time period as the U.S. Army contract to Sedgley (as per Ricca) and yet all the ones I removed from a crate, had the USMC stamp. Continuation of old contract??? Maybe Sedgley did not want to change the stamp until it wore out, assuming two stamps, one with the ‘Circle S’ with USMC,, the other stamp with the date????, at least that is my guess,, anyone know for sure???

I understand that Sedgley acquired AV’s barrel making machinery (I think Jim is the source of this information). Bill Ricca states that, the information he has indicates all Sedgley barrels were made inhouse.

I attended the National Guard’s National Match Armorer rifle and pistol school in Nashville. While there I met Gene Barnett (M14 NM Barrel fame). We got to talking about these Sedgley 03 barrels and he offered to air gage any I sent him (if the pilot fit OK). At the time I thought the shipping cost too high, so now, to my great regret, I never got to find out just how uniform or not, these barrels are. I slugged a great many of these barrels and IIRC, the largest I ever measured were 0.3085”, the slugs went thru smoothly with no indications of tight and loose spots. In my opinion, the Sedgley was better in quality than a Springfield WWII made barrel.

So, that is it, just another part of the M1903’s history that I am hoping someone can add some factual information to.

45B20

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Calif-Steve]

Very well done! I bought my first Sedgley barrel in 1972(?) right after coming home from Viet Nam. It was a new barrel, not bent, and a very good shooter. I bought another perhaps 1998 (?) and it was bent. Got rid of it. I then received a CMP US Army Sedgley perhaps 2005(?). Not bent, I still have it in the parts box. I think High Standard '03 barrels are very good barrels and the equal of anything SA ever made. The bent barrels do not run right and should you buy one good luck. I did see a pile of bent barrels at the Portland Gunshow 3-4 years back, all sold very quickly. Let the buyer beware.

[Charlie]

In the late 80's I ended up with a several of these bent Sedgley barrels. Couldn't get my $$ back so decided to experiment with a couple of them. I found that at the point of the bend there were two small protrusions both about .010-.012 spaced very close together and that the bores were very good on either side. Who ever had straightened the barrels had done a very good job as they were dead on. I had read an article years before about some research that the British did on straightening barrels. They did a lot of experimenting with many different configurations and what the found was that if the last four to six inches of the bore was good and straight with the sights the rifle would shoot as accurate as any combat rifle. Behind that 4-6" the barrel could be in pretty bad shape and still shoot well. Considering that, I went about removing the protrusions in the barrels. Both barrels gaged right at .300 and a .300 pin gage would drop freely down the barrel from either end untill it hit the protrusions. . Useing a series of spiral reamers welded to lenghts of .300 drill rod and lots of cutting fluid I reamed the protrusions untill a .300 pin gage would drop through the barrel with no restrictions. Both of these barrels shoot as well as any other standard issue barrel and hold nice tight groups. I still have one of these rifles, I sold the other to a friend who is well aware of what was done and still shoots the rifle regularly. I must add that I have a complete machine shop and 50 years experiance as a machinist/toolmaker/gunsmith and had everything to do the job on hand. So it's not just something the average guy can do in his garage. Another interesting thing is that in the group of bent barrels I got there were two bent SA barrels. So while the bent barrels seem to be predominately Sedgley's there are others. For me, every barrel I come by is suspect until I check it out.

[Chuckindenver]

yes,
Sedgly barrels were made from equipment from Avis.
yes.
many USMC marked barrels were bent, sold as scrap to Golden state, Santa Fe, National Ord. and straightend, and sold as usuable surplus..
can i prove it??
no.
might be fact, might be a myth....

[Old Salt]

Great thread guys. I am the guy with the Remington with USMC marked Sedgley barrel. I picked the rifle up at an auction and found I needed to have it head spaced. The gunsmith said the barrel has a 1/2" flat spot about 12" down the bore. I don't have a machine shop so I'm looking for a barrel unless you can suggest another route? Does anyone re-drill and rifle barrels? Is it practical. This will be my winter project and I'm open to suggestions!

[45B20]

Old Salt
Charlie’s method of restoring a ’kinked’ Sedgley is very interesting, but unless you have the equipment and ability to do it yourself, it is probably cost prohibitive. However,, if Charlie still has the tooling, perhaps you two could get together and work something out???

At some point during this time period (late 70s early 80s) the sales rep for many of the “LA Crowd”, Paul Rennick, approached me with questions about button rifling. Paul said that one of the people he represented had a large stock of barrels with a “defect” in the bore and wished to repair these barrels by running a swage thru the barrel. These may have been the infamous ‘bent’ Sedgleys, it also might be an answer to your problem. So,, try the same thing I told Paul, contact some of the barrel makers that uses the button rifling method (Douglas at the time) and see if they can help you. The Sedgleys have the standard M1903 boring and rifling which I THINK is the same as the M1 Rifle barrel, so if you can find some one set up to make replacement barrels for the M1, they may be able to help you. I really think this is a real long shot, but you never know.

But let me give you another problem. IF you get the ‘lumps’ pressed/reamed out, and then take it back to the original gunsmith, he, (knowing the background of this barrel) may not want to do the chambering lengthening you still need,, lawyers and all that. So, keep this in mind.

If you really must have a Sedgley barrel, take your ’handy dandy’ bore gage to gun shows and maybe you will get lucky. Also try to find a 7.6mm (0.299”) drill bit and use the shank off that one as well.

Good luck

45B20

[Bill Ricca]

I would like to add some facts about these bent barrels. It appears that people are under the impression that only Sedgley barrels were bent. Not so. I purchased several dozen 03 barrels from a passed away dealer circa 2003, and there were about 12 -15 re-straightened barrels in the lot. Most were Sedgley USMC marked, but there were also 2 or 3 Remingtons, a few SA and 2 Hi Std.

The barrels were not bent due to production problems. They were bent as a form of de-milling them before being released as surplus. I suspect is was a USMC depot that released them due to the large percentage of USMC barrels. The only USMC depot that I know released surplus items was the depot in Barstow, California. But that was the 1980's and these barrels were released a lot earlier.

[45B20]

Bill
Good information,

I was under the impression that all most all the ‘stuff’ that came out of MCLB Barstow was M14???

Did the USMC have that many 03 parts that late??

I understand most of these Sedgley barrel have the USMC stamp on them, but were not most, if not all the Sedgley barrels with 43 and 44 dates on them,, produced under contract for the US Army???
Were these Army contract barrels under Army control or directed to whoever needed them???

I was ‘told’ that during the late 60s, 70s and early 80s,,most of the 03 parts came out of Tooele. Also that because of some internal paperwork manipulations, the parts were released as scrap steel (although the parts were serviceable,, mostly new or refurbished still in packaging) and were paid for by the lb/ton. Most of the parts used during these rebuild projects,, came out of boxes that were marked with “Tooele”..

Personal note: Bill:: I will not be at home for the next 3 or 4 days. I will mail a copy of that inspection paperwork out of the Sedgley crates to you Fri or Mon.

Thank you much

45B20

[Bill Ricca]

I saw a lot of items released from Barstow, but later. I do not know what it released before I got into the business. The bulk of 03 parts being released was from the late 1950's thru the early 1960's. M14 parts were not being released at that time as the rifle was still new.

One thing about the surplus business. When you hear certain claims, that is usually based upon that individual's experience. 03 parts were released all over the place back then. I know of 15,000 plus butt plates out of Rock Island, tens of thousands of bands out of Pueblo Army Depot. Many bolts, released by the ton and 146,000 stiker rods at Letterkenny and the list goes so on and on. Over all what a depot had depended upon how many and what type of units it was supporting. But some depots had a lot more of certain items than they needed and were over stocked with those items. That is when inter-depot transfers occurred.

Tooele may have had a lot, but so did other depots. I think it is hard to determine which had more and when. Again, that statement will be based upon somebody's experience, which was probably localized.

The Army contract for the barrel was under Army control. However that does not mean an item produced by the Army will not be transferred to another branch of service. The only way to prevent that is to classified the item as "confidential", then all items produced and paid for by that branch of service will be used strictly by that branch. Naturally they could not classify any 03 barrels. What that means is as the Marine Corp needed barrels, it was probably cheaper to get them transfered for use, then go out an start a new contract. That is why you see lots of Army material being used by the Marines from WWII thru 1960's. I do know about current procedures.

I want to thank you for the contract information. I look forward to recording it. Take your time, this is an on going project.

[45B20]

Thank you Bill

You are quite right about the problems with localized sources for information.

I do hope that some day that someone will publish a history of the SA parts dealers of the 1945 to say 1980 era. But that will not be in yours or my lifetime, gotta wait until they are long dead. I was amazed at the time, by the knowledge that some of those men had and maybe even more impressed today. But even that was not so good at times. At least 200 of those 03s in the first 1000 rebuilds were outright fakes, Sporters, NM, NRA Rifles and 5 or 6 Rod Bayonet 03s. And a fair number of pre WWI 03s were “reassembled”.

Interesting people, interesting times.

Bill, I do hope you are putting all your knowledge on paper (disc, hard drive whatever)??????? I am sure that someday it would be much appreciated.

45B20