Bren Scope

[Peter Laidler]

Hold a bit chaps......, it's ME that's made the mistake. I thought I'd cleared it up but. The DIAL sight fitted into the front dovetail together with a very early effort to fit the type 1082 optical sight. The DRUM and the prototype brackets for the No32 were to fit into the rear dovetail due to the different eye relief of the No32 sight..... as shown in the drawings.

The trouble here was that from that moment on, the gun was either iron OR optical and not both. While the combination tool had the necessary forked screwdriver and mallet to enable the average gunner to remove the base for the optical sight in an emergency, the notion that the average Bren gunner would be able to fix the drum sight base into its place, then assemble the drum to it is not realistic.

That's the reason for the copper mallet on the combination tool, the small screwdriver and the small forked screwdriver.

I hope that's cleared it up and apologies if I mislead anyone. I did it deliberately just to see if you were all awake..............

Thanks for the info on Mk1m intermediate M4841. The earliest confirmed TRUE Mk1m (to the full Mk1m spec) is M-5138. So there could be 1,000+ Inglis intermediates. This makes them the rarest Inglis guns including the 3CH range

[John R.]

I fired quite a few K rds through that gun and I know VERY well that the scope mounted on the FRONT dovetail and NOT the rear one for the drum sight.
The scope protruded enough to be seen PAST the elevation drum for the rear sight which was mounted in the REAR dovetail and NOT the front one just below the magazine well and behind the barrel latch.

The scope was 'strictly KOSHER' as was the gun itself.Only the Tom Dugelby(who's wife Jeannie INSISTED on calling him "Blair" as Tom was too plebeian for her tastes.They also split up at a later date)supplied mount("bracket" to the over the pond crowd) could have been NON-kosher.
Tom had a lot of sources for truly neat stuff at that time and who's to say that Canada didn't do a little experimentation of it's own with mounts and scopes etc ?All I know is WHERE the scope mounted and it WAS in the forward dovetail AND that it worked very VERY well on the local Southern Ontario ground hog population.

I recall resting my right cheek on the back of my left hand which was holding the small of the buttstock to my right shoulder as per how I had been instructed as a 15year old Rfn Recruit in the Victoria Rifles of Canada.Doing this helped align one's master eye to the ocular end of the scope,Resulting accuracy was GREAT TOO.

That gun and the 25 Long Branch T's all matching and in their transit chests(all purchased from Al Mucher at Queen City Surplus Sales in May 1968) are the guns that I regret MOST having sold in this life.I paid Johnny Wolffe $150 for the PRISTINE Inglis 1941 MkI M and Tom Dugelby $100 for the mount and the old optical tech $50 for the REL No32MkI scope.The BRAND NEW Long Branch T's were fifty bucks a throw.Apparently one went at that Rock Island Auction place recently for some hellacious sum so I really wish that I had just stashed ALL of that stuff for future reference and not sold it off.

Ah well,hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 isn't it ?

Cheers all,

JR

[Kev G]

Having scaled the drawings of both the 32 scope and bracket and a MKI body from given drawing dimensions and transposing them, the image of the scope and bracket appear to mount perfectly in the front dovetail (the dovetail under the magazine well).This aligns the rear of the scope with the upstand/aperture of the drum sight as per the drawing.

The end projection of the scope mount is also canted which would allow the drum sight aperture to be viewed.




Using the same scaled drawings of the scope/mount and MKI body and moving the scope/mount to the rear dovetail occupied by the drum sight (approx 106mm backwards) add another 30mm (guess) for eye relief and this only leaves approx 110mm to the end of the butt plate.110mm (a little over 4 and a quarter inches) seems a very small amount of room to shoulder the weapon and view the scope (in my case impossible)

I am working from drawing DD(E) SK No 316 - Telescopic sighting for application to Bren .303in MG or No 4 MKI rifle , and hasten to add that I don't posses a 32 scope to make a 1/1 scale mockup.Nor do I have any later drawings or amendments that might show any modifications of alterations.

In case I have made a balls up on above can anyone can re-check or do a similar experiment ?

ATB Kevin

[Peter Laidler]

It's getting technical now................ Don't forget that an Enfield SK drawing is simply a SKetch (OK, a drawing) of an idea that has not made it to the design and development stage. From the two brackets (called the stem in the official papers) made to fit the male dovetail bit, neither could be adjusted to fit both the rifle and the Bren. And as the Bren was soon to be simplified, the project ended. But a modified version of the bracket/stem emerged and the No4T was born.

I'd be a bit more accurate with dates and design numbers but all the papers etc are away awaiting thr editor and printer to get a move on

[Brian Dick]

John,
To think I was a six year old down in Kent Bridge and you didn't come to get me so I could have a go!
Brian

[stencollector]

Thanks for the info on Mk1m intermediate M4841. The earliest confirmed TRUE Mk1m (to the full Mk1m spec) is M-5138. So there could be 1,000+ Inglis intermediates. This makes them the rarest Inglis guns including the 3CH range

Darn, I thought when I traded for my CH script gun I had something rare...guess it's just run of the mill after all.


I have a number of the mk1m guns pass over my workbench. I'll keep an eye for a closer breaking point on the change up from mk1M (intermediate) to mk1M (pure). Won't be until spring mind you.

[Peter Laidler]

Have any captured Brit/Aust or Inglis Brens crossed your path in the dusty climes yet SC? We've seen a few Inglis .303's plus a spectacular 1936 ZB that was used/captured in a bit of a gun battle

[stencollector]

No Brens that I have seen here. About the only Bren-ish goods I have seen were a bunch of the gunners multi-tools on one of the tables at the weekly market. The vendor was trying to sell them as Snider-Enfield tools. They were actually the ZB30 tools and his price was more than I could buy them for back in North America. The guy wanted to trade 3 of them for my surefire flashlight, but he was so persistent that I suspected he was up to no good.

[Kev G]

Peter,when you previously said ".......the No32 were to fit into the rear dovetail due to the different eye relief of the No32 sight..... as shown in the drawings." I persued the 'as shown in the drawings' bit for my transposing scope/brackets onto body drawings.
As previous Bren and scope DDE's (for the Pattern 1918, Watson & Weaver Telescope and Telescope, Detachable. Applied to Bren .303" Mk 1 along with Telescope Sighting No. 32 Mk 1 Applied to Bren .303" -in Mk 1 (Bracket) )also indicate that the scope bracket was to fit the front dovetail as per the DDE SK drawing with the rear end of the scope in line or slightly further forward of the drum sight apperture upstand. Why did no one tell the design department at Enfield the optimum datum point for the scope to be placed before drawing commenced ?

Using the eye relief distance for the drum sight apperture and then making the nessasary adjustment for the difference in the 32 scope eye relief would have given my wife an easy time of working out the placement point !........and thats not much of a compliment.

OK, you are probably going to say it's not as simple as that , but it seems to have taken allot of drawings and time to find out they had got it wrong.

As a matter of interest what is the eye relief for a 32 scope assuming 20/20 vision (as I'm never likely to own one and my eyes are naff anyway) ?

........and when is the book going to be published ?

ATB Kevin

[capteod]

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does anyone out there have a set of drawings for the BREN GUN MK2 or L3a4 RECEIVER? I am trying to reweld a receiver and need some specific dimensions to ensure the final product is correct.

Any help would be appreciated, and if a set of real drawings were available i would buy them.