Bren Scope

[303TF]

Nice to see a forum for the old girl - when reading alot of books about the Bren and Lee Enfield sniping, they all make mention that the No 32 scope was originally designed for the Bren Gun , WHY ? , why , who , when what, wanted a scope on a light machine gun, thats always been a question that I haven't found an answer to ?, many thanks

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[Stevo]

I would imagine it's for the same reasons you see optics on LMGs today; to make target identification easier and to increase hit probability.

[Badger]

In addition to being a trained and highly experienced military "Armourer", Peter Laidler has authored two excellent books about the No.4(T) sniper rifles and their No.32 scopes. They are titled "An Armourer's Perspective: .303 No.4(T) Sniper Rifle", which he co-authored with Ian Skennerton and his own dedicated work, "Telescope Sighting No.32".

For those really interested in some in-depth learning about No.32 series of scopes, their history, evolution, repair and adjustments for shooting, we'd highly recommend those two books, which are pictured below.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Badger

[Kev G]

I was going to have a mount machined up as a point of interest years ago but never got around to it.......now the price of a scope has put paid to that idea !

[jmoore]

The Japanese may have been the first to widely equip their LMGs w/ scopes, at any rate, its been done for a while! HMGs in WWI, Mg34 and Mg42s in Lafette (spelling?) mounts. Probably originated w/ the artillery folk who are used to using scopes to shoot things they can't even see.

[John R.]

Once upon a time back in the mid 1960's I had a BEEYOOTEEFULL Inglis MkI(M) Bren with adjustable bipod legs and a REL MkI scope AND a MOUNT TOO.

Once I got it zeroed I took it hunting ground hogs(marmots) down around London Ontario with a now departed Doctor friend.Ted was REALLY into machineguns in a big way and so was I in a somewhat smaller way(98 registered full autos at the end).

I bought the mount from Tom Dugelby and although he SAID it was kosher/original he might have built it himself.The scope I got from an old gentleman who was an instrument tech at REL in Leaside throughout the war.
He lived close to the old REL plant just a block or so East of Bayview on Eglinton Avenue East(North Side).

It worked like a charm and you could literally drive tacks with the gun with the scope.I took it down to the Army Range at Winona a few times on the sly and it outshot my 90L8112 T every time.I truly regret having parted with that piece even now 40 years later.

Cheers,

JR

[Beerhunter]

Once upon a time back in the mid 1960's I had a BEEYOOTEEFULL Inglis MkI(M) Bren with adjustable bipod legs and a REL MkI scope AND a MOUNT TOO.

I may have missed something here but how did you mount a scope on a Mk1M.

[Peter Laidler]

THere were only ever two telescope mounts made for the Bren and both were destroyed early in the war during trials to formulate the bracketry for the No4T. So if you had one, it was definately a fake. The Bren version was a 'bracket' of sorts that screwed to another bracket that went into the rear dovetail. That's the answer Beerhunter, it went onto the rear dovetail. These pictures of it mounted onto the front dovetail are the wild imagination of the fairies. The eye relief would make it impossible to use!

In the forthcoming book, there is an accurate in every (?) detail repro made up, just for the camera. The first 6,000 No32's were earmarked for the Bren. I have the actual serial number somewhere but.....

Don't forget that the Bren was going to be all things to all men including a MG to aid the Vickers in the OHF/indirect fire role. Common sense prevailed and it was shorn of all the crap, simplified and what emerged was what we see now as the section light machine gun.

Sorry to puncture another myth. While the Bren was superb at everything it did, accuracy wasn't one of its finest attributes. The radial sight was a ballistic nightmare and even with the long heavy barrel ladder sighted Mk2 version, the trusty Bren wasn't as accurate as even the most mediocre rifle. In fact, even at 25 yards, the acceptable FTR'd Bren accuracy diagram was a failure for a No4 rifle!

[PrinzEugen]

Let's start the campaign here to get straight pull? react/new made brens legal for the uk!

[John R.]

The Inglis gun in question had a largeish dovetail open at the top and was tapered.You slid the mount into the dovetail and then reefed down one or two large thumbscrews.Said dovetail was on the LEFT side of the receiver sort of below the mag well around the middle.

I bought the gun from John Wolffe at Albion Arms in Peterborough and took it over to Tom Dugelby's place one night.Lo and behold he tells me that he has a scope mount and rings for it and pulls them out.Drops in the dovetail and fastens to the receiver rock solidly.I didn't tell Tom that I had my REL 6x30's in getting a set of bloomed later lenses installed and that the old tech I mentioned showed me an 'extra" MkI REL scope that he had(with sunshade too) so when I went to pickup my binos I talked the old gent out of the scope and HE mounted it to the setup I bought from Tom D.I ALSO recall that Tom had a scope mount AND SCOPE for a Boys AT rifle.Scope wasn't a No32 Mk 1,2 or 3 either but a larger and more streamlined one.

I am 6 foot 5 and MkII Bren Bipods are just TOO damned short for me.I wind up either shooting into the dirt 25m ahead of the muzzle OR use a sandbag or log or whatever(my pack) to raise it up.With a MkI bipod they went first cabin and the legs adjust.You could buy all the brand new Inglis MkI and MkII barrels that you wanted at the time for $25 or LESS if you took a few.UN-numbered spares and all you had to do was get a bunch of different height foresight blades and zero each barrel to your gun and then you were good to go.I wasn't joking about that "minute of groundhog accuracy" either.

Mind you,you really haven't LIVED until you've blasted ground hogs with MG 42's,MG 34's and WOWEE a 20mm SOLOTHURN AT rifle and a Lahti 20mm as well.We had some API that had a HUGE tracer element that REALLY was fun to belt the ground hogs with.The little boogers got shell shocked if you missed.
Tom Dugelby taught machineshop in some Toronto High School and was a VERY Talented machinist/tool and die maker.He might well have made that scope mount himself too. All I can say was it FIT PERFECTLY and didn't lose it's zero(it DID if you removed it from the dovetail on the gun)It was either parkerized or matte finished blue.That was well over FORTY years ago and I sold off all my machineguns when I went to work overseas in 1969.All I have now is ONE M1928A1 TSMG and a M14NM(Springfield Armory MASS)

I sort of miss my machineguns but back in the 60's you could take them out to shoot.now you can't take them out of the house without some dipstick SQUAT Team chasing after you or whatever.

Duty calleth here now;must dash ! JR