Fake S'G' Carbine?

[AZCarbineFan]

This is my first post to your website, I have been a carbine fan for 30+ years. I am very interested to hear what the members think about the S'G' rifle and how it stacks up in collectability to the Irwin Pederson. Are the S'G' rifles built under the IP contract considered more desirable than the ones built under the Saginaw contract?

I have a real unusual one, it's a S'G' in the 3.24 million range with an Inland Barrel and an S'G' triger group that appears to be original finish. I can take pictures if any one is interested. My impression, based on 10 years as a manufacturing engineer, is that this got built to complete a contract with what ever was laying around. Since Inland, SG, and S'G' were all owned by GM, this seems reasonable.

Now for the good stuff, if you look up GB Auction #154357996 you will see what I believe to be a fake S'G'. The reasons are these; restamp of manufacturer, no locating hole on left side of receiver, wide tang on back of receiver. It may be that the person selling it does not know, since he took a very clear picture of the left side of the receiver.

Saginaw S'G' M1 Carbine : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com


Now the real one, on GB Auction #153570595 there is a Saginaw listed that is really an S'G' for these reasons; The serial # is in the IP Block, the channel for the slide is fly cut (only on IP's and S'G' is this feature visible) and it has an Underwood barrel. The flycut is a dead giveaway on this maker, no other maker used this approach leaving visible machining marks. This rifle is right around $700 with a few hours until the auction closes.

WW2 M1 Carbine Saginaw General Motors-SG 9-43 Mfg. : Curios and Relics at GunBroker.com


Any thoughts?

Information

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[usgicollector]

Not sure if you know this, but there was a small batch at the end of Grand Rapids(S'G') that were made at the Saginaw plant that was transfered to the grand rapids plant. This is one of those receivers. I am only commenting on the receiver not the rest of the carbine. You can tell it was made at the saginaw plant by the wise tang at the rear of the receiver. If you notice the serial number also falls into the saginaw block not the IP/S'G' block

[AZCarbineFan]

Thank you, I did not realize that Receivers, went both ways. The S'G' receiver that I have is made under an SG contract #, but is definitely made in the Grand Rapids facility. Any other thoughts about the listings?

[BrianQ]

Are the S'G' rifles built under the IP contract considered more desirable than the ones built under the Saginaw contract?

After march 1943 there was no longer an IP contract. All Saginaw Gear carbines, whether built in Grand Rapids or Saginaw were built under the SG contract.

..the channel for the slide is fly cut (only on IP's and S'G' is this feature visible) and it has an Underwood barrel. The flycut is a dead giveaway on this maker, no other maker used this approach leaving visible machining marks.

You might want to take a look at some of the other carbine manufacturers like Rock-Ola, NPM, WRA, etc. they are the same.

[usgicollector]

AZCarbineFan

I am a machinist by trade and I can tell you that the type of tooling marks you are saying are from a fly cutter can be by many types of cutters. I would guess that they were more likely made on a horizontal mill with a custom tool on multiple receivers in a part specific jig or vice. These are still used in many production shops with auto feed and return to cut grooves or slots in mass quantity parts and you will not get tooling deflection as you would from a vertical mill.

As for the two carbines They have both been rebuilt at some time and would not have a tremendous premium over CMP prices unless you had to have one or the other for some reason.

I would like to see your S'G'. An inland barrel would not be to unusul as the grand rapids plant used barrels from the government free issue program so it could be correct. I would figure the barrel date would also be in the later months of 1943 based on your rifles SN.

[johnw32]

hi
first Thank you, I did not realize that Receivers, went both ways. I have is made under an SG contract , but is definitely made in the Grand Rapids facility.

[Maniac]

FWIW AZCarbineFan, I show in my database S'G' # 3.635xxx with a Saginaw Div. barrel as well as S'G' # 3.6489xx with 11-43 Inland barrel. I agree that it is quite possible for these barrels as well as those for which you provided links to be original to their receivers given that they were all made by G.M. and it was in the best interest of both Saginaw division and the U.S. Gov't to produce as many carbines as possible.
To address your question about collectibility of IP vs S'G' carbines, IMO the IP marked receivers, which are said to number 50,000 or so, are the most collectible of all the carbine makers, excluding rarities such as M1A1's, M2, M3 and Commercial Controls receiver guns. S'G' receiver carbines are very desirable owing to their relationship to IP and the fact that there were only maybe 173,000 or so manufactured, over 50,000 fewer than Rock-Ola. Of course, others such as Winchester command high prices even though they were the 2nd biggest producers of M1 Carbines.
I for one would be interested in seeing pix of your 3.24 million S'G' and/or a data sheet. Is it a post war rebuild or is it in an early original configuration?
Thanks