Civil War Proof Marks

[satan52k]

Have only one firearm, an original civil war musket. Made by Colt, surcharged N.J. (New jersey?) , dated 1862 on lock and barrel. Proof mark is a puzzle to me, is V with right leg made into a P, over eagle head. Anyone know what it means?

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[drm2m]

VP over Eagle head is a proof marking...that is normal.
The N.J. marking on this Colt manufactured gun is puzzling.
Photos would perhaps make it easier to understand more about this rifle musket.

Photos of the lock markings, stock markings on the left side opposite the lock,
and the barrel markings including where you see N.J.

David

[satan52k]

David, many thanks for your response; the N. J. is stamped into the rear of the barrel (in the area of the proof mark) and repeated on the left side of the stock where the lock screw heards are located. It denotes the rifle was made for/sold to the State of New Jersery rather than the Federal Government. The Colt "veified proof" is the problem as it is a combination of the letters "V" and "P", with the "P" not under the "V" but incorporated into the right arm of the "V". The normal proof mark is a "V" over "P" over "eagle head". Is definitly civil war issue COLT SPECIAL MODEL 1861 rifled musket, with lock and barrel date of 1862. Have been told that the form of proof mark on the musket denoted "second quality" but have not been able to confirm that with any reference book, but have seen it with many other N.J. surcharged muskets. Musket has family history of having been inssued to Joseph Swickerath of 23rd. N. J. Infantry and purchased by him at the time of his discharge as evidenced by a printed form acompanying his discharge papers. The markings on the lock plate are all the standard Colt markings. Am trying to attach photos. Thanks. Mikd

[drm2m]

Satan 52K

Back in 2005 I had the pleasure of corresponding with Joe Bilby on a few Civil War arms related subjects. He is an expert on the New Jersey story during the CW and a very helpful fellow.
The following is an excerpt from one of those emails.

David


Sun 08/05/2005

NJ purchased rifle muskets from Schuyler, Hartley & Graham and Trenton Arms Co. in 1864 for militia use, and marked them "NJ" on both stock and barrel. I have seen some Trenton and Savage guns with the barrel stamp but without the stock stamp, and these probably had their stocks replaced at some point. The guns delivered were Colt 1861 Special Models and Savage and Trenton Model 1861s.
NJ specifically noted contractors when reporting inventory. My information on the NJ contracts comes directly from the NJ Adjutant general's reports of the period, coupled with the NJ marked muskets I have seen over the years.

Regards,

Joe Bilby

Joe


Click on this link.
Civilwarguns

You will have to register to post on this forum, but you will probably get the answers to are looking for.

Shown below are a couple of books he wrote regarding New Jersey during the CW.








I have an NJ (New Jersey) marked Model 1861, unfortunately, Muir was not one of the contractors that supplied Model 1861s to New Jersey.

This I learned from Joe Bilby.

Somehow the NJ marked barrel (1863 dated) got mated with this Muir marked lock (1863 dated) at some point in the past.

I am sure I will never know the story.

(Click on the bar to enlarge the images.)

[drm2m]

satan52K

Does the VP on your musket look like the photo below?

If so, that is Colts Verified Proof mark.
The photo shows it on a M1911A1 Colt pistol.

(I have no idea if they used this marking back in the 1860s for sales to non U.S. government purchasers?)

Because New Jersey purchased these guns directly from Schuyler, Hartley & Graham they would not have been U.S. government inspected and would not show the usual government V over P over eagle head proof markings.

The NJ stamp on the barrel and on the stock of your gun might be acceptance stamps by inspectors in New Jersey.

Joe Bilby could clarify that for you, as will the right reference books.

Joe Bilbys recommendation was Hartzler, Yantz and Whisker's book on the 1861 Springfield.

Just a thought.

David
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(An excerpt from Flayderman’s guide to American Antique Firearms relating to the Colt Model 1861 Special Musket. (9th Edition.)

Recent information from government records indicates that the total production was 100,000 and that many of them were supplied for state contracts; this will explain the numerous specimens encountered with N.J. (New Jersey) on both barrel and stock.

There is more commentary about these Muskets that does not relate to N.J. marked guns.)
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Colts Verified Proof marking on a M1911A1 pistol.







This is Joe Bilby, his rifled musket looks like a Colt Special Model 1861....I will bet it is NJ (New Jersey) marked.

Joe is the author of many books about Civil War arms and the history of that period.




For they that may be interested;


Joe Bilby's Biography--which might be somewhat dated at this point.

Joseph G. Bilby was born in Newark, New Jersey. He received his BA and MA degrees in history from Seton Hall University and served as a lieutenant in the First Infantry Division in Vietnam. Mr. Bilby is Supervising Investigator of the New Jersey Department of Labor’s Central Investigation Office, has taught military history on the community college level and lectured widely on the Civil War. He is the author of over 250 articles on New Jersey and military history and Outdoor subjects and is a columnist for The Civil War News and New Jersey Sportsmen’s News and contributing editor for Military Images Magazine. He has appeared on the History Channel's Civil War Journal and the Discovery Channel's Discovery Magazine as an expert consultant on the Civil War and 19th century firearms and wrote the liner notes for David Kincaid’s Civil War music CD album The Irish Volunteer and Kincaid’s forthcoming Irish American’s Song. Mr. Bilby was a Panelist for the NJ Historical Commission's 1996 seminar on Civil War Studies, and is a Trustee of the NJ Civil War Heritage Association and member of the Development Board of The Robert E. Lee Civil War Round Table's Library and Research Center.

Since the publication of the first edition of Three Rousing Cheers: A History of the 15th New Jersey Infantry from Flemington to Appomattox, in 1992, Mr. Bilby has written Forgotten Warriors: New Jersey's African-American Civil War Soldiers, Remember Fontenoy: The 69th New York and the Irish Brigade In the Civil War and co-edited My Sons Were Faithful and They Fought: The Irish Brigade At Antietam, all published by Longstreet House, Hightstown, NJ.

He received a grant from the New Jersey Historical Commission to assist in the research for Three Rousing Cheers, and Forgotten Warriors received a publication grant from the same institution. Remember Fontenoy was awarded the 1997 William Donovan Award for Excellence in Military Literature and, in a softbound edition as The Irish Brigade in the Civil War, published by Combined Publications, Conshohocken PA, was a Military Book Club selection.

Mr. Bilby's Civil War Firearms, published by Combined as well, was also a Military Book Club selection, runner-up in the history category in the 1997 Small Press Book Awards and received the Louisiana State University Civil War Center's Award of Excellence.

His most recent book is Remember You Are Jerseymen: A Military History of New Jersey’s Troops in the Civil War, co-authored with William C. Goble and published by Longstreet House. He has recently contributed to the forthcoming Encylopedia of New Jersey (Rutgers University Press) and a second, expanded, edition of his history of the 15th New Jersey Infantry is scheduled for publication in the fall of 2000.

Mr. Bilby is a member of the Outdoor Writers Association of America, the Irish Brigade Association, The Society of the First Infantry Division and the North-South Skirmish Association's 69th New York.
He lives at the New Jersey shore with his wife and three children.

[drm2m]

Joe Bilby has helped me on several occasions.

These are excerpts from emails with Joe Bilby prior to my purchase of a Harpers Ferry manufactured Model 1842 Musket.

I appreciated his input before I moved forward with this purchase.
I had sent him many photos of the musket, and he was more than helpful.

The right help from the right people can make all the difference when deciding to proceed with a purchase.


I had the same help (following the review of many photos) from Bruce Canfield before purchasing an early M1A1 carbine…his advice was invaluable and very much appreciated.
(Shown in the two photos below.)









I had huge help from Jan Still and some other very savvy Imperial Luger collectors before I purchased a unit marked Luger Artillery rig....it was so very important.
(Shown in the two photos below.)









Many of the knowledgeable good guys are ready to help…if you ask them.

These are the guys that write the books.

If you request their opinion...the photos have to be very clear and "critical marking specific"...and keep the commentary short.

There is no greater waste of time than being asked for an opinion on the correctness of a piece with "out of focus photos."


A General Thought;

If you want to post a photo....look at it first....if it is out of focus and a shi*ty" photo don't post it...do it again.

-----------------------------------------------------


Joe Bilby and the Model 1842 Musket.


My question regarding the 1843 dated Model 1842 Harpers Ferry manufactured musket.
From a Civil War collecting context, would this model be a good addition to a Civil War collection?

David
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Absolutely -- widely used in the first two years of the war by both sides, and used by certain regiments, like those of the Irish Brigade and the 12th NJ, who preferred it, into late 1864. The 12th's Gettysburg monument is as much to the '42 as to the regiment. It is topped with a large sphere and three smaller ones, with the line "buck and ball."

Joe.

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This gun has the earliest lock plate dating recorded for this model….1843 (for a Harpers Ferry gun.)
-The barrel date is also early (although not matching) ….1845.

David
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Not unusual to have mismatched lock and barrel.

Joe

----------------------------------------------------

These dates fall within the Mexican War period with possible relevance to the Civil War.

David
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Both, which gives a slight premium.

Joe

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The musket.

(Click on the bar to enlarge the images.)















Other Salient Facts;

Between 1843 and 1855 a total of 275,000 of this model were manufactured by Springfield and Harpers Ferry Armouries, of which 172,000 were turned out at Springfield alone. The bayonet utilized for this model musket was the Model 1842 socket bayonet, which was 20-1/2 inches long, with a 2-7/8 inch socket and an 18-inch triangular blade. The U.S. Model 1842 Musket was the first arm to be produced at both the Harpers Ferry and Springfield Armouries on a completely interchangeable basis, and aside even from this significant fact, holds a prominent position in the development of U.S. military shoulder arms. This was the first regulation percussion arm produced in the national armouries, and at the same time, the last of the .69 caliber smoothbores.


The bayonet.




David