Drill Purpose Rifle L59A1 UK Legal Status

[Simon P]

Does any one have any info on the Legal status of the L59A1 DP rifle in the UK, I have the opputunity to aquire one for the collection through a friend who is a RFD.

We are trying to determine if they are a Section 1 Firearm or not, as there appears to be some confusion surrounding these, a bit like the skeleton actions.

TIA

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

They are not, nor ever ever will be, capable of discharging a shot bullet or other like missile. The whole project was designed around that fact and that the rifle was so modified that its structure was totally incapable of withstanding the shock, load or pressure of discharge. It was also so designed that it was impossible to utilise component parts in another or the insertion of serviceable parts into the weapon

Does that answer the question

[Thunderbox]

The trouble is, there does not seem to be any formal system in UK of disseminating to interested parties (shooters, Police, RFDs, etc) rulings or definitions that have emanated from the Proof Houses, Courts - or Warminster! The Home Office is very careful not to issue any "guidance" that might soften firearms control in their eyes.

AFAIK, it is still down to individual Police Forces to make up their own minds about L59s/ skeleton actions/ grenade cups/ etc. If one Force have bothered to seek expert opinion, thats not going to stop another (anti gun ownership) Force trying it on. I think most Police Farces will still demand that L59s & skeleton actions are formally de-activated. Common sense does not come into it - lets not forget its a 5 year mandatory prison sentence if they manage to make a prosecution for "possession" stick. I wouldn't try and hold an off-ticket L59 in somewhere like Kent, for example.....

[Beerhunter]

I agree with Thunderbox.

An L59 will not have been de-activated in "a manner approved by the Secretary of State for rendering it incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile." as required by the 1988 Act. Nor will it have been through either of the two proof houses and so cannot benefit from the phrase: "it shall be presumed, unless the contrary is shown, that a firearm has been rendered incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile, and has consequently ceased to be a firearm within the meaning of those Acts."

So it cannot legally be a "De-activated Firearm", within the meaning of the Act unless and until it has been though the two processes. It is a Statutory requirement under the Act - no ifs, buts or maybes.

So Section 58? Section 58 specifically relates to antiques. Is an L59 an antique? For example, to benefit from Section 58 HO guidance for Muzzle Loading Firearms is that they have to be pre-WWII or they are Section One/Two. (However, that is HO guidance - not Statute Law.)

So you pays your money and takes your chance.

[spinecracker]

So the answer appears to be ask the local police force and see what they make up, based on their own opinions? I am so glad that I am living in a gun-friendly (for now) state in the US.

I should start a rescue service for Lee Enfields, seeming that the government is hell-bent on destroying a part of our national history. What is the next step? Closing the Royal Amoury in Leeds and other museums so people can't even LOOK at guns????

Please pardon my rant. I left England before the recent major firearm clamp-downs happened, and I am stunned at the lengths the government and police forces are going to to prevent firearm ownership.

[Beerhunter]

So the answer appears to be ask the local police force and see what they make up, based on their own opinions?

No. The answer is do not ask the local Police and risk bringing things to a head.

[Peter Laidler]

A case of an L59 would never get to court if you took advice. A very similar case of an L60 (a DP L1A1) was discontinued after advice from all concerned including the MoD. And was returned to the owner even though it never had a deact cert. The official DP's are neutered to well BEYOND the spec of deactivation.

Likewise, L54 DP Brens were on sale in the early 80's, even before there was such a thing as a deact spec.

But just make sure that they are REAL L series DP's and not some imaginary home made idea of a DP

And European spec deacts are also lawful too. To say not is a breach of European free trade!

[Mk VII]

So the answer appears to be ask the local police force and see what they make up, based on their own opinions?

They will almost certainly refuse to give an on-the-record opinion, before the fact. And even then you are not entitled to rely on it. You can only find out their attitude ex post facto, in which case you'll have to be prosecuted, convicted by the bench, and then appeal it successfully.

[Peter Laidler]

There's a simpler way to resolve this.

Someone get a correctly marked and genuine ex UK MoD L59A1 entered on their FAC. Then, when it's due for renewal or before, ask to have it removed from the FAC as, after due consideration and technical advice, it is not a firearm as defined in law. Present the rifle, together with a copy of the UK MoD spec plus a report from, say, the person who drew up the spec in the late 70's together with his qualifications and experience in this particular matter/field. That person may well be invited to present your case in a robust and technical way for the price of his lunch and mileage

They might huff and puff a bit but after learning that another Force have allowed such a beast, they'll remove it.

There, that's food for thought isn't it. I have had TWO such beasts removed from my FAC in the past. Remember the phrase. Where there's a will, there's a simple way

[Thunderbox]

There's a simpler way to resolve this.

Someone get a correctly marked and genuine ex UK MoD L59A1 entered on their FAC. Then, when it's due for renewal or before, ask to have it removed from the FAC as, after due consideration and technical advice, it is not a firearm as defined in law. Present the rifle, together with a copy of the UK MoD spec plus a report from, say, the person who drew up the spec in the late 70's together with his qualifications and experience in this particular matter/field. That person may well be invited to present your case in a robust and technical way for the price of his lunch and mileage

They might huff and puff a bit but after learning that another Force have allowed such a beast, they'll remove it.

There, that's food for thought isn't it. I have had TWO such beasts removed from my FAC in the past. Remember the phrase. Where there's a will, there's a simple way

The trouble is, we the shooting community would have to go through this procedure fifty-one times - ie once for each Police Force. Even then, there is no guarantee that a Police Force would allow the same transaction twice in a row - they habitually move the goalposts from shooter to shooter.

The problem with being sure it would "never make it to court" is that the damage is done long before it ever comes near a court: ie you may have been arrested, held, put on the DNA database, had your guns and ammo removed (by force, if they can't find your keys) and probably damaged, and your name & details put onto x number of databases....