what makes a 1903A1

[rice 123]

I was reading last night and the author was contending that most 1903A1s were early Remington. I had always thought that any 03 in a C stock was technically an A1. So what makes a 1903A1 a WW1 03 in a C stock or a 1941 Remington in a finger groove stock

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[Chuckindenver]

well,
some facts, and what i say makes a 1903A1..
fact.
NO Remington 1903,s were 1903A1,s plain and simple..
the fact that any 1903 shoved in a C stock, doesnt make it a 1903A1.

serial number 1200051 is the first REAL 1903A1..so...any rifle with a number higher then that could be a 1903A1..but as of yet, nobody has come up with a reciever lower then that one, that was sold as a 1903A1.
so in my and others opinions, to be a REAL 1903A1, it had to been sold as such, and labled as a 1903A1 by the DCM sales list..
any other would be someone trying to get in your wallet.
a perfect example.
if i had the bare reciever listed above..it would always be a 1903A1..no matter what stock, or lack there of it had...
simply dropping a 1903 in a C stock, doesnt make it a A1..only a 1903 in a C stock.
argue all you like..but until someone shows me a rifle with a lower number then i listed, WITH PAPER WORK, sales rec, ect, from the NRA, DCM ect, as a 1903A1..i stand my ground.
so let me clear this up a bit.
someone that calls it a 1903A1 just cuz they dont know the facts is one thing.
someone that calls it a 1903A1 for personal gain..is another..
a real 1903A1 will bring a bit more money, if its on the lists i have..

[Rick the Librarian]

I'll respectfully disagree with Chuck on this - the definition of a M1903A1 with a Type C stock or scant stock installed as part of an overhaul or on new-produced M1903s makes it a M1903A1 - not by a civilian owner. But Chuck and I have had this disagreement before and we've "agreed to disagree".

Getting back to your original question, there are a couple of authors that state that Remington produced "M1903A1s" - I know Poyer is one and possibly Sharpe's book on rifles in America.

**NO** Remington M1903 was manufactured with a Type C stock as "original equipment". All used "straight" stocks. Although the "standard" for U.S. military rifles was the Type C-kind of stock, Remington was given "dispensation" to use straight stocks. IIRC, this may be the origin of the term "M1903 (Modified)" to describe Remington M1903s.

Type C stocks were used on new-production Remington M1903A4 sniper rifles, but that was a different "beast".

[Chuckindenver]

Rick?
when i drop my 1910 dated RIA in a Keystone stock, does that make it a 1903A1 target rifle???
or how bout my Remington 1903A3 thats in a C stock..does it now turn into the rare 1903A3A1???
really, think about this,,,long and hard..
for years the 1903A1 was a side note..
now, many yahoos, are trying to jack more money out of some POS parts gun, but dropping it in a C or scant grip stock..
when in fact, the 1903A1 was a standard service rifle within a serial number range, in a C stock..
its ok...i still like ya...lol.

[Chuckindenver]

hers some info, by Mallory, who did a lot of research on this,
notice he lists the 1903A1 as a standard service rifle, says nothing about being in a C stock.
and the second pic is of the first group or rifles listed as a 1903A1.
any of these rifles, no matter what stock, or how complete they are, would be..a 1903A1.. no ifs ands or buts about it..
i collect the higher NS rifles, do to this subject, we all have our nitch so to speak..

[Rick the Librarian]

I agree - a Yahoo drops his action in a C stock and it is not (legally) a M1903A1 - just one done by the military. I also agree that people piece together so-called "M1903A1s" and try to clean up. On the rest, well, Chuck, we'll just have to disagree.

I think the gist of Rice-123's question concerned whether Early Remington M1903s were M1903A1s. I think we can both agree that wasn't true!

[Chuckindenver]

yup, on that subject we are on the same page..
i see GB auctions all the time with a Remington 03 listed as a 1903A1.

[rice 123]

The author that states that" most original A1s were the early remington contact " was Howard R Crouch US Small Arms of WW2. I think he must be under the impression that any 03 produced between 1929 and 1943 when the Modified 03s and the 03A3 came in were A1s. I do not agree with his statement but I think it is intersting for discussion

[Rick the Librarian]

The problem is that one "old" author has a misleading piece of information and later ones, who are too lazy to do the research, copy and spread the ignorance around.

Another good example is the so-called "Chrysler Corporation" bolts and other parts (marked CC): For some reason, William Brophy reported it that way in his book, ca. 1985, and I still see it in '03 books today.

[Randy A]

If I understand the initial question, the only way to tell other than the serial number range (if the gun was in original configuration) (and we all know how probable that is) would be the elimination of the 2850 yard volley notch. They were approved to have the C or Scant stocks, but were allowed to be put in the old straight stock due to large inventories of the old stock. When inventories were exhausted they would be put in the C. But things changed before that happened. Of course the A4 called for the good stuff so It got it. I hope I'm not about to draw fire over this,,,, am I close?