Large case reloading, Pack or not

[JBS]

Trail Boss powder, and call their “800” number. Ask them for loading info for your application. They will give you the simple info on how to calculate your start and max load.

[Edward Horton]

Patrick Chadwick

I have never fired a black powder charge in any firearm in my life, I also never hunted with a bow and arrow, a spear or thrown rocks at game.

I also had a Ruger No.3 in 45-70 and fully understand the three different loadings in the reloading manuals for this cartridge and pressures.

Loading 18 grains of 2400 in a .270 case made me “nervous” and slightly paranoid about double charging cases. This led to many inspections of the filled cases with a flash light and nagging thoughts about too much powder in these cases.

SR-4759 was made specifically for reduced loads and higher loading density and Trail Boss is used as a black powder substitute with a high loading density.

It is impossible to double charge a case with SR-4759 without knowing it when looking inside the case.

In the majority of cartridge cases if SR-4759 is used a filler is not required because of the higher loading density.

My main point here is MORE people should read the front of the reloading manuals and attempt to learn something rather than ask questions in a forums where bad answers can be given out.

The answers I gave here were from these manuals and don't contain rumors or bad advice, this does NOT mean any of the advice given in this posting is bad advice. BUT it does mean reading current up to date reloading manuals will keep you out of trouble.

Right now in a cast bullet forum a person famous for writing about "inherent weakness" here in this forum is handing out reloading information and this person doesn't reload or cast bullets. (He is passing out information he read in other forums and much of it is bad information)

The manuals will not tell you to lube your cartridge cases, fill the cases with Cream of Wheat, sawdust or sock fuzz.

My final point is I don't reload MY cartridge cases and shoot them with internet rumors, I reload my cases from the manuals and even cross check them in case of a printing error. (Such as Sgt. York and the Kaiser) RTFM

BUT I am a cheap bastard especially at going out of business sales.
(don't ask me how many cans I bought of SR-4759)

[jimb16]

Unique is a fast burning shotgun powder and reaches peak pressure much faster than rifle powders. Just look at the grains. Those little flat grains burn very fast compaired to the heavier grains of rifle powders.

[jmoore]

On the subject of manuals for black powder cartridges, the SPG manual has GREAT instructions on building accurate BP rifle loads. Nothing specific to the calibers under discussion, but due to the nature of the propellant, it will still be quite useful. (Powder weight is not the real concern so much as uniformity and slightly compressing the charge.)

“SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Primer” written by Steve Garbe and Mike. Venturino

Black Powder Magazine Slipcover

Most excellent BP bullet lube as well!

BTW Mr. Horton, since you have never fired the systems in discussion w/ the original propellents, well, I think it's time to broaden your knowledge base- It's actually quite fun shooting, and the loading techniques involved reward attention to detail, which you seem to appreciate.

[jamie5070]

Ask your question on the martini forum. You will get a lot more info there.
I currently shoot a 50-70 rolling block and a MK IV martini.
john

[Patrick Chadwick]

Dear Edward, I am not after your sock fuzz, but I did hope you might have some real information on the "shock wave from minimum loads", rather than hearsay. We all rely on your proven ability to dig up something solid in most cases, instead of the scuttlebutt typically retailed by Mr Inherent Weakness.

Patrick

[garra]

Well, I'm not sure if my question has been really answered. I am getting conflicting advise to use Dacron, where I have also been contacted to not use it and to use Kaboc instead. One item seems to be consistant and that is the use of either Trail Boss,SR4759 and BP. I have gone through all my reloading books, and the only manual that even lists the affected cartridges is the Cartridges of the World. In most cases BP is recommended and in only 2 of the caes the smokeless of 4198 is the only data presented.

This brings us to a more important point and that is where does one go to find smokeless powder data for obsolete cartridges. It appears that it is not in print as Edward would have us believe, if it is I would like to purchase a copy of said data. The only hope one has is to consult with fellow shooters and gain the required knowledge from their experience. I thought these forums did provide such a venue, but it appears I have been mistaken.

regards,

[Edward Horton]

garra

Lyman recommended Dacron, they did their pressure and ballistic testing with Dacron and did NOT publish any problems with Dacron.

Cream of Wheat and kapok are thicker and denser than Dacron and it is my understanding that Cream of Wheat and Kapok effect chamber pressures and Dacron does not.

You have been contacted and told to use Kapok instead of Dacron.
(do what I say and ignore the manual and the trained people with the pressure measuring equipment)

If you go to other cast bullet forums you will also have people telling you to grease your cartridge cases when all the manuals and official printed matter tells you not to lube your cases.

I'm telling you this because I spent the last 25 years of my career as a Inspector in Quality Control forcing people to read the manuals and to forget what Joe across the room told them. (Joe can be wrong but the manual is always right)

There are smokeless powders specifically designed to replace black powder such as Trail Boss and the Cowboy action Shooters are using it.

There is word of mouth and there there is what is printed in manuals by trained people with with proper testing equipment.

Now ask yourself WHY the data I cut a pasted from the Lyman manual recommended Dacron and SR-4759.
(the manual predates Trail Boss and more people appear to be using it rather than SR-4759)

The main thing I'm trying to get across to you is manuals do not contain rumors and watered down distorted information, they contain proven tested facts.

You asked about fillers for reduced loads and the Lyman reloading manual said Dacron and they had a reason for recommended it.

Read the reloading manuals (more than one) and then ask questions and make mental notes on who gives the best answers.

[Parashooter]

FWIW -

Cartridge : .577/450 Sld. Martini Henry
Bullet : .457, 500, LYM LRN 457125
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.200 inch or 81.28 mm
Barrel Length : 30.0 inch or 762.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 15000 psi, or 103 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 90 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

5 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 30%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
IMR 3031                            59.3     54.1     3.51    1626    95.5    15000    3766   2.705
Vihtavuori N135                     63.8     56.5     3.66    1607    96.3    15000    3612   2.727
Winchester 748                      54.7     57.5     3.73    1607    90.5    15000    3749   2.711
Vihtavuori N150                     66.3     61.1     3.96    1596    91.3    15000    3699   2.730
Hodgdon H335                        51.0     54.4     3.52    1585    93.0    15000    3539   2.731
IMR 4895                            59.0     55.7     3.61    1582    88.4    15000    3615   2.707
Vihtavuori N140                     59.8     56.1     3.64    1582    93.7    15000    3500   2.732
Hodgdon H4895                       60.1     56.8     3.68    1580    90.7    15000    3554   2.717
Ramshot TAC                         54.3     55.6     3.60    1579    89.5    15000    3551   2.736
Hodgdon H322                        53.3     50.6     3.28    1578    94.3    15000    3423   2.725
IMR 4320                            60.2     57.8     3.75    1574    86.2    15000    3571   2.718
Vihtavuori N530                     54.1     53.1     3.44    1571    89.6    15000    3495   2.746
Ramshot X-Terminator                50.2     50.7     3.29    1566    93.9    15000    3375   2.754
Alliant Reloder-12                  53.3     53.1     3.44    1564    94.4    15000    3354   2.739
Accurate 2015                       52.9     50.0     3.24    1563    96.9    15000    3302   2.794
IMR 4064                            60.5     55.8     3.62    1562    86.4    15000    3459   2.741
Alliant Reloder-10x                 50.8     46.8     3.03    1561    97.6    15000    3243   2.781
Hodgdon VARGET                      59.8     56.5     3.66    1560    85.8    15000    3470   2.733
Vihtavuori N540                     59.3     58.6     3.80    1551    87.4    15000    3465   2.770
Vihtavuori N133                     56.2     50.2     3.26    1543    96.3    15000    3134   2.750
Vihtavuori N130                     51.9     47.4     3.07    1529    97.3    15000    3039   2.784
Hodgdon Benchmark                   52.6     50.5     3.28    1525    90.2    15000    3169   2.778
Accurate 2200                       47.6     47.2     3.06    1524    91.8    15000    3109   2.774
IMR 4198                            48.4     42.3     2.74    1522    98.3    15000    2880   2.740
Vihtavuori N120                     47.5     42.4     2.74    1513   100.0    15000    2713   2.784
Accurate 1680                       41.2     43.3     2.81    1507    95.3    15000    2922   2.782
Alliant Reloder- 7                  43.0     40.6     2.63    1502   100.0    15000    2744   2.889
Winchester 296                      34.7     36.3     2.35    1501    99.8    15000    2711   2.838
Hodgdon H4227                       42.9     38.4     2.49    1490    99.6    15000    2631   2.774
Hodgdon H4198                       46.5     42.6     2.76    1489    93.7    15000    2807   2.776
Accurate 5744                       38.9     35.5     2.30    1476    97.9    15000    2663   2.787
IMR 4227                            42.3     37.8     2.45    1475    99.2    15000    2578   2.781
Hodgdon H110                        35.3     37.0     2.39    1470   100.0    15000    2489   2.855
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     34.7     35.2     2.28    1465   100.0    15000    2339   2.860
Vihtavuori N110                     39.0     32.3     2.09    1423   100.0    15000    2113   2.862
Accurate 4100                       33.2     33.5     2.17    1420   100.0    15000    2140   2.851
Ramshot Enforcer                    31.5     31.3     2.03    1405   100.0    15000    2035   2.873
Alliant 2400                        31.1     28.8     1.87    1400   100.0    15000    2010   2.860
Alliant BLUE DOT                    32.3     25.7     1.66    1339   100.0    15000    1730   2.891
Vihtavuori 3N38                     30.6     24.4     1.58    1293   100.0    15000    1524   2.929
Vihtavuori N105                     31.6     24.1     1.56    1292   100.0    15000    1519   2.965