Interesting Photo - 'Hybrid' Bren Guns Carried By Vichy French Milice Militia

[peregrinvs]

I've just got my copy of the July / August edition of the Armourer militaria collectors magazine and on page 27 is an interesting photo of three Brens being carried by members of the Vichy French Milice militia that had been intercepted from stocks parachuted to the French resistance.

What caught my eye is that they are hybrids of MkI and MkII parts. The picture is fairly clear and you can see that all three have MkI receivers and MkII butts. The gun closest to the camera also has a MkI* barrel, a MkI barrel locking nut, a British type MkII bipod and a MkII barrel handle. The second gun behind is partially obscured, but you can see it has a MkI* barrel. The third gun is also obscured, but you can see it has a MkII barrel handle.

I would make the assumption that these guns were probably captured 'out of the crate' and it is unlikely that the Milice would have deliberately mixed up the parts in what appears to be a uniform way from other captured British MkII Brens.

So does anyone know if Brens intended for the French resistance were deliberately put together as hybrids of MkI and MkII parts? The only reason I can think of is that it was thought that the MkII parts would be more durable or easier to field repair? But if so, why not just supply complete MkII Brens.

An interesting little mystery...

Mark

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[Peter Laidler]

Ah, not QUITE a mystery Peregrine...... Don't forget that the whole idea of a Mk2 gun and parts was simply to simplify production. Mk1 guns and production continued in order that there was absolutely no break in production while the simplified Mk2 gun and parts were being started and produced. So assembly was carried on. All parts were made to be and were fully interchangeable. So if there was a barrel shortage at Enfield (it was a bottleneck there) cheap and simplified Mk2 (and 2 groove Mk3) barrels would be ready and waiting. The same presumably applied to bipods etc etc across the board and vice verca.

When Mk1 and 2 production finally ceased and Mk3 guns became the norm, then while the old parts were obsolescent, they were used up but thereafter, Mk3 parts were used throughout.

During the last days of the old .303" Bren, it was very/quite common to see Mk1 and 2 gun bodies with short Mk3 gun barrels (got to be careful here because the mark of gun doesn't indicate the mark/type of part in many cases.....) and butts.

As a result of this, an instruction was issued to Armourers and quartermasters that regardless of what the gun LOOKED like, the mark was that carried on the gun body. You can imagine that at a quick glance down an armoury rack, that a line of Mk2 guns with Mk3 gun butts and barrels looked like an armoury full of Mk3 guns. This will have been a frightening sight for a long serving quartermaster expecting to see a row of Mk2 guns that he'd just signed for!.

Quartermasters............., yes.......... Long serving, VERY exp[erienced but alas not gun minded. You soon learned that you couldn't easily pull the wool over their eyes. But they knew the Equipment Regulations inside out and backwards. Once you got to know one, he would and could do anything with his stores registers!

But I have digressed as I usually do...............

[peregrinvs]

Thanks Peter. That's a straightforward explanation and the least complicated explanation is usually the correct one.

So to recap; it so happened at RSAF Enfield one week whilst they were making MkI Brens that they had a shortage of MkI butts, MkI bipods and MkI barrel handles. Therefore they dipped into the general Bren spares manufacturing 'pool' and substituted MkII parts and by a quirk of fate a batch of them ended up with the Milice?

I've seen various wartime pictures of MkI Brens with MkII parts and had always assumed they were the result of field repairs where any part available would be used.

Cheers,
Mark

[Peter Laidler]

Looks like it Peregrine. I have a picture of the Small Arms School Bren Pairs shooting team 1949 with an identical Mk1 Bren with Mk2 parts. But it's still a Mk1 Bren. Likewise, Cadet Forces Brens c.1990. Looks like a load of Mk3's but look carefully and they're Mk2's. And in my very office, a nicely mounted Mk3 but look carefully at the backsight and it's a Mk1

[AmEngRifles]

Peter, from your response it sounds as if the "small parts" would have received the design changes and implementation earlier (Because it was easier?) and maybe the Mk1 receivers were the last thing to change?

I could certainly see this happening in wartime, as getting all the dies in place, and the line changed out would be an involved process, and one possibly delayed with many things having to come together?

Or have I missed the point completely and made up my own version!?

[ZGB]

Just the other week i managed to get hold of a photo of a RAF regiment class taken in march 1944 and at the front are 3 MK1a brens fitted with Mk2 butts and bipods.