Bullet tumbling

[dthiede]

I finally got to the range with my No.1 mkIII Enfield. I bought some Wolf gold 174 gr ammo to try out. Every round I shot went through the target sideways at 50 and 100 yds. What would cause this? The barrel looks to have good rifling to me but I am new to Enfield Rifles and I am looking for any ideas or suggestions before I take it out again. Thanks in advance

Dan

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[JBS]

Slug your bore to find out what it is. Some of those old bores will go .318 In that case you are limited to cast bullets of that size or .002 over.

[Edward Horton]

Wolf gold 174 gr ammo is actually Prvi Partizan ammo made in Serbia.

Here is your problem you are shooting a boat tail bullet and your Enfield doesn't like shooting them, you need to try a flat base bullet.

Wolf Gold and Prvi Partizan ammo below.



Standard British military ammunition for the Enfield was Mk.7 flat base ammo.



You are shooting the equivalent of Mk.8z boat tail machine gun ammunition.

Try some 180 grain Remington hunting ammo with a flat base bullet, if the bullet still hits sideways or keyholes you then have a worn barrel problem.

NOTE: When a flat base bullet is fired the kick in the seat of the pants makes the base of the bullet expand and fill the bore. A boat tail bullet when fired does not expand to fill the bore and fails to stabilize properly and keyholes or hits the target sideways.

The Rebated boat tail bullet below is like the British Mk.8z ammunition.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Wolf projectiles are generally quite consistent.

Old Lee Enfield barrels are not.

I had one on the bench the other day that was a corker. It came in with a target shot at 50m. The "group" was about 10" diameter and EVERY bullet had gone through sideways. Ammo was "Highland", (locally badged Privi Partizan.)

Yes, there was still some rifling left in the barrel, but it had a surface grade akin to 50 grit sandpaper. At the muzzle there was a distinct "flared" look.

The owner seemed to think it was odd that new ammo would shoot so badly in his family heirloom barrel.

Once again: .303 barrels were ALLOWED to run out to .318" groove diameter according to the original spec. The will perform well enough for "government work" with THE RIGHT AMMO. soft-point, BOAT TAILS are NOT the right ammo.

However, if your rifling is clean and sharp(ish), AND your throat and leade are not burned out, AND your muzzle is free from major cord-wear or other damage, it will shoot this ammo OK, or at least, for as long as it takes to really burn out the throat.

If there is a creative bullet maker out there who is willing to run up a couple of million flat based .311" - .312" FMJ projectiles of approx 174Gn weight, I am sure they would be well rewarded for their efforts. NO boat-tails!!

I photocopied the target "for the files": a true classic. I will try to post it ASAP.

[smellie]

My standard test loading for all .303 rifles uses the Sierra 180 flat-base bullet. I think they call this one the 'Pro Hunter'. It does work rather well for this purpose.

I run them at about 2250 ft/sec, which you can get easily with 37 or 38 grains of IMR-4895. This was discovered, during the pre-1910 adoption, to be the most accurate velocity for nearly all .303 rifles used with the new Mark VII. I seat to the overall length of a Mark VII Ball round. The Sierra bullet has a different ogive than the Mark VII, and this does tend to crowd the leade just abit. Still, most rifles I have tried seem to like it.

Hornady also makes good flatbase .303 slugs, these in .312 diameter. Their 174, though, is a RN. I do wish they would do up the 174 as a PSP, retaining the flat base, and give us a 215 RN; I know that I certainly would stock up on them for my Lee-Speed, old AG Parker s/n 19 and the SparkbrookS (kindly note the "S": I am terribly proud, even if one is a sporter and the other junk being resurrected).

The HORNADY 150, though, is entirely a different kettle of fish, being a "Spire Point" flatbase and it has a very convenient cannelure. These I run up just about to .308 velocities and, so far, there have been no signs of distress among any of my crowd. This bullet, ahead of 40 grains of 4064, seems to be just about the perfect load for the P.-'14 rifle, making ragged little 6-round, 1-hole groups at 145 yards. Seating is so that the entire cannelure shows at the case mouth.

If you're out buying commercial ammo, all you have to do is buy the cheapest North American stuff that is available. Generally, it is loaded with flatbase bullets. It's the 'Premium-grade' stuff which is loaded with those pesky BT slugs, costs more and doesn't shoot worth a hoot in some rifles.

Still, I do wish somebody would turn out a .314" bullet. Collecting on MY budget, you really NEED them! LOL!

[dthiede]

Update... I went to the range today with the 180 gr Remington flat base bullets. Every one still through the paper sideways. I slugged the barrel and the bore checks .307 dia and .317 groove dia. The muzzle end will accept a .308 dia gage pin about 1/4 inch deep. It looks like my options are to replace the barrel, or look into reloading some special size bullets unless there is something else I can do. Thank you all for your help.

Dan

[browningautorifle]

Before you do that, just try a lighter bullet. It should be shorter. It may make a difference. It's cheaper than rebarrelling.

[jmoore]

You might try some actual MkVII bullets before you consider rebarreling. The open flat base bullets, unlike the commercial closed base soft points, may upset enough to egage the rifling. Whilst much of the Pakistani surplus AMMUNTION is poo, the bullets themselves are OK. This ammo is still fairly available and not too expensive. Try some, if the ammo is not good just pull the bullets and use them. (Usually the hangfire stuff still groups well enough off the bench to see if the rifle will stabilize the bullets. The stuff that won't fire at all might not be as informative...)

[Edward Horton]

If you slugged the bore from the chamber to the muzzle you squeezed the lead slug down to the smallest diameter and least worn section of the barrel, normally the middle of the barrel.

Example: I had a Springfield 03-A3 30-06 that was .312 in the throat, .309 in mid bore and .310 one inch inside the muzzle. The good news was it shot the Hornady .308 170 grain bullet designed for the 30-30 like a dream come true.

Try slugging and checking the bore a few inches down the throat and a short distance down the muzzle. Doing this will give you more information on your problem barrel.

Note: Different brands and type bullets are made and constructed differently, the 30-30 Hornady bullets I was shooting in my Springfield were designed for the 30-30 Winchester. These 30-30 bullets had a large bearing surface (the amount of bullet contacting the bore) AND a softer lead core. When these 30-30 bullets were kicked in the seat of the pants when fired the softer lead core allowed the bullet to expand more and fill and seal the bore.

Moral of story, try different brands of ammo and types of bullets in your Enfield before you give up on your barrel.

My Springfield barrel looked like a sewer pipe and had no rifling at the muzzle and still shot extremely well with the right bullet.

[Buntlineguy]

I had the same problem with my Enfield. I found that Hornady #3130 round-nose bullets did the trick. It has to do with wear (corrosion) where the rifling starts. This bullet gives more surface area for the rifling to contact.
Good luck
B