I need help identifying these Bren parts please. Round firing pin?

[Kev G]

Peter could you put me down as a candidate for the butt slide assy etc ?

ATB Kevin

[infidel]

Peter, on closer examination, what I thought was a C was a 0. number is MF (hand stamped it looks like) and below 40908

[MGMike]

Kevin nailed it.

I don't know if it's ever been established exactly what the circled HK stands for, but there is no doubt that it's a ZB mark. It's easy enough to verify that it's from a ZB-39: the bolt face counterbore diameter for 8x56 is significantly larger than that of .303. An 8x56 cartridge rim won't fit in a .303 bolt.

The Czechs did make some .303 "Brens" (other than the ZGB guns for the British) but those used the usual D-profile firing pin, which goes back at least to the ZB-26.

M

[Kev G]

The Czechs did make some .303 "Brens" (other than the ZGB guns for the British) but those used the usual D-profile firing pin, which goes back at least to the ZB-26.
M

MGMike I am waiting to hear back from a couple of museums that hold Czech made export (non UK) 303 Brens to check on the firing pin profile.Could you give some details of end user countries of Czech made 303 Brens that you know of that had round / 'd' profile firing pins ?
Many thanks Kevin

[MGMike]

MGMike I am waiting to hear back from a couple of museums that hold Czech made export (non UK) 303 Brens to check on the firing pin profile.Could you give some details of end user countries of Czech made 303 Brens that you know of that had round / 'd' profile firing pins ?
Many thanks Kevin

Well, for openers my .303 has the D-profile pin. It was unfortunately "sterilized" and whatever crest, proofs and other markings it had were completely removed, so it's unknown for what country the receiver, at least, was originally made. The style and placement of serialization is identical to the Bulgarian pattern but the gun was never Bulgarian, as a ZB-39 magazine is too wide to fit in the mag well. I suspect it was assembled postwar at Brno from prewar parts for clandestine export to Palestine, but that's only a guess. All I know for certain is that my gun was imported into the US in 1955.

The 4-volume official history of ZB has charts indicating that ZB received orders for “Bren” guns in caliber .303 from Iraq (850 units in 1936-37), Egypt (1060 units 1937-39), and Finland (600 units in 1940). It is unknown whether any of these were actually delivered. Another Czech source --Sada-- states that post-1938 developments in Czechoslovakia interrupted completion of these orders. In any event, with such small quantities it is a miracle that any have survived.

As you have noted, these .303 guns differ in many details. None of them is exactly like a British Bren or the various ZGBs. They all have the AA-sight "collar" at the extreme rear of the receiver, barrels with a screw-on flash hider and an entirely separate gas regulator, and a rear sight drum mid-mounted as in the ZB26, not the Mk I Bren. The buttstock monopod socket is also of Czech, not British pattern.

M

[Kev G]

Thanks for the info on your Czech Bren Mike.
As a matter of interest is the reciever marked - ZBROJOVKA BRNO.AS or CESKOSLOVENSKA ZBROJOVKA.AS.BRNO. ?
How is the fire selection marked ,25-0-1,30-0-1,A-S-R. ?
what type of butt sling point does it have ?

Does it have the sling loop attached to the front of the reciever ?

Thanks if you can help.

I only have 3 volumes of the ZB History by Otakar Franek ,could you point me to the Finish reference to the 600 guns please as I'm missing this or can't find it (or I can't work out what Finland is in Czech )

Sada is no more enlightening in 'Ceskoslovenske rucni palne zbrane a kulomety'

ATB Kevin

[MGMike]

Kevin: To answer your questions:

My gun is marked "Zbrojovka Brno A.S." with selector markings of 30-0-1, so it's clearly not ex-Bulgarian. The sling points are a QD stud on the stock as you have pictured, the front one an integral boss midway on the piston housing portion of the receiver. The s/n is 2281, again too low for Bulgarian; only the receiver is numbered, nothing else. The bolt and gas piston/slide are both circle-HK marked, and of very fine obviously prewar machining-- in contrast to the external finish which has a very deep reblue but a "postwar Communist" indifference about the polishing under it. Unfortunately the original barrel went astray somewhere, but British-issue barrels fit and function fine.

I was mistaken about Finland; the 600 guns were ordered by Latvia, but after 1940 there was no one to deliver them to, or anyone to pay for them.

The charts I referred to are in, I believe, the last volume of Franek. I don't have the set, only the charts and other excerpts that I was able, many years ago, to xerox. I don't read Czech but I have a complete English translation of Sada. He mentions a South African order, but that does not show up on the ZB charts, and in any event would not have been fulfilled after 1939. Sada states that Iraq was the only customer who actually got deliveries of (non-UK) .303 Brens. I find no reference anywhere to Ireland.

M

[Kev G]

MGMike appologies if it appears like an interrogation
I'm just trying to glean as much info about it for reference.As the documentation is so sparse on Czech Brens it is worth hovering up any details to try and make sense of it all.

Could I be as bold to ask for some pictures of your gun (online or offline) ?

Not sure if the South African order (that was fullfilled) for 15 ZGB33's would account for the SA mention as any design with a sliding butt group seems to be listed as Bren/ZGB33 ?

The Irish contract I only found out about after finding some Czech made 303 30rnd magazines with FF Irish ownership markings on them.Subsequent delving suggests that they were delivered in 1937 .I think 227 were ordered but not all that number were delivered as in the Irish 1939 war stock only 82 are listed.Photographs of them show they are more like the Iraqi contract guns than model 1939/zb39 guns.

ATB Kevin

[MGMike]

Kevin, I would love to do it, but taking respectable photos would be a complicated project for me, and if I added that to the list of the ones already marked "URGENT!" it would be No. 87. Someday, perhaps.

M