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Banned
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08-23-2010 02:00 PM
# ADS
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Advisory Panel
if your mislurps was going to blow up, it already would have??
i would say....i disagree.Attachment 15191Attachment 15190
just a couple, that have failed and were shown here by fellow posters. 1911 was likely an over loaded round, the A3, was accesive headspace, yes, thats his blood on the rifle..
i dont need to dig up books to know how to be safe. i just promote it, at every chance i get.
i have plenty of other case head failure pictures of rifles shot with headspace issues, that if were checked with a simple no go gage first would have not been shot until a barrel was changed or repaired.
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Banned
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Advisory Panel
Guys, please do not flame me. I do not think that I am an idiot, and I am not asking this question as a joke. I would be delighted to read a serious answer founded on facts, not hearsay.
Will someone please explain how excessive headspace (whatever that is) can cause a rifle to blow up?
Case head separation, yes. With resulting gas blowback, yes. Blow up rifle--How?
Patrick
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Advisory Panel
in the last few years, iv had 3 1917,s that have had case head failures, 2 1903,s , 1 1903A3, 1 Glock 17, 1 Remington 788 in cal, .308, one Winchester M12 shotgun {replacement barrel}
and my presonal Remington 700 in cal, 6.5-06
all 3 17,s destroyed the stocks and floorplates, all 3 had over sized chambers and headspace issues, and gualled bolt locking weys. receivers did not fail, all blew the extractors off, and injured the 3 shooters, and one bystander with shrapnel, the gas has to go someplace, and down and out it did.
the 1903,s just locked shut, and cracked both stocks, receivers didnt fail, both had headpace issues, and new barrels fixed the issue...no injury, other then a numb hand and a peppered face, the A3, is the one thats shown, and a Nat Ord, made receiver, it failed, destroyed the stock, injured the shooter, of 2000 cast made rifles by Nat Ord, Santa Fe arms, iv seen more then 5 here in Denver fail alone, and every one iv ever checked would close easy on a feild reject and no go.
the Glock 17, is a duty pistol of a friend who works for Denver PD, and had a lot of rounds fired, and was starting to split cases, he still kept firing the pistol, after i told him to retire it, and send it back to Glock, it blew the top of the slide off, Pistol is on display at Gunsmoke, no injury cept of a bruised ego,
Remington 788. . 308 Winchester, came to me first as a clean and safety check, it failed headspace, and had seen a lot of hard use, i advised the customer replace the barrel, or only shoot factory ammo if he was going to keep shooting, 2 weeks later the rifle failed, destroying the stock, blowing the magbox out of the rifle, shooter was injured bad cust to his left hand, and face, bolt was locked in place, after the bolt was forced open, bolt face was fractured, receiver didnt fail, new barrel, bolt, stock and other bits, the rifle is back in service.
Winchester M12, US riot gun, customer asked me how much to swap out the barrel for a trench gun barrel he picked up on GB, he didnt like my rates, and did it him self, on the first shot, it blew the shell lifter down, fractured the forend, broke the barrel extention, injury to his foot, and left hand.
Remington 700 6.5-06. custom i built, from a .260 Remington barrel, i knew eventually it would have to be turned back, last year, it started to split case necks, i stopped and check, failed headspace, i turned the shoulder back, reset the chamber face, and reamed the chamber,. and its back in service, passes headspace, and shoots like a dream.
those are just the failures in the past few years, that i have personally delt with, and are extreem in nature...
but like iv been trying to say... better safe then sorry.
the 1903A3 was shot by a fellow Milsurps member, and while i was away, he was told that the rifle was safe to shoot, and to just go ahead and shoot it....
had i saw that rifle, i would have told him what a POS they are, and not to shoot it...
what iv been trying to point out...is that i agree that, a fired case is your best test for headpace and chamber issues, the only thing i dont agree with is that telling people not to have a headspace gage...though they arent a failsafe test,,they are a cheap way of safely checking a rifle, not all guns can be gauged in the same way, and research should be done, before you buy a vintage rifle, such as the one pictured,
any firearm can fail, even if you follow all the safe shooting, tests, cleaning ect.. things happen., iv seen them at the worst..
so i push safety first and foremost.
like i said earlier.. the guns we all buy , collect and shoot on this forum can be over 100 years old, and you have no idea what they went through,
some could have not ever seen any service, but others could have seen hard use and abuse, they were cleaned up, and sold as scrap or surplus.
we buy them with the intentions of shooting, collecting and enjoying them... this should be done safely with a little common since.
Last edited by Chuckindenver; 08-24-2010 at 11:22 AM.
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Banned
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Advisory Panel
The 03 Springfields below are made from receivers that were cut in half and sold as scrap by the military. These receivers were welded back together and are now being sold as "like new" rifles. Having a headspace gauge won't fix the problems these rifles are going to have unless you check your headspace every time you go to the range to shoot.
not hardly, the A3,s pictured in your link are recovered drill rifles, that is... bore plugged, with a carbon steel rod. barrel welded to the receiver, firing pin ground off the end, firing pin hold welded shut, cut off welded so that the bolt cant be removed,
the rifles pictured, barrels replaced, welds removed, bolt replaced... refinished, if done right headspace is just fine.
i have never ever seen a 1903 springfield variant that was a welded together from 2 other rifles... Garands yes, 1911 pistols yes.. 03,s ? no.
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Advisory Panel
Thank you Edward and Chuck for your contributions.
I observe that there is however no explanation as to how excessive headspace per se can cause a rifle to blow up. Chuck writes of rifles "with headspace issues", but form the further information (welded receiver sections) it sounds as if those rifles had a lot of other defects. Edward is familiar with the claim that the Enfield has a "weak" action, but a friend has a No 4 that can seperate cases by the sackload, and I don't think it's going to explode. What hapens when the case seperates is that there is a puff of hot gas out of the side vent hole that is especially provided for that purpose. I do not see how this could produce excessive pressure in the chamber. Vent holes or channels have been common practice since the 1870s/80s, when brass drawing had not yet been mastered to the level of today's technology, so I am not convinced that an '03A3 receiver can blow because of a case seperation.
So I put it to you again guys: has anyone clear evidence that excess headspace BY ITSELF can cause a receiver blowup?
Patrick
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Advisory Panel
if you look at the picture, and read the stats of the failures, you notice that none of the receivers failed, however. when the case head failed, the gase holes provided werent enough,
look at the stock on the A3 pictured. it was fractured around the receiver area.
the injuries were from wood, and parts of the trigger guard,
the other rifles that failed, had damage in the same way.
in all of the case head failures that i delt with, the rifles were repaired, and back in service.
addmited, i know very little about the SMLE, and likely wont ever work on one, or keep one in my collection, and wont ever work on one.
for the most part i agree with the fired case approch of headspace, i dont agree with not checking headspace with a gage..
the OP was in referance to headspacing a 1917 Enfield, and not a SMLE.. and said rifle in the OP actually headspaced just fine, after he checked it correctly, and is likely safe to shoot.
what got my attention, is a lack of safety. and i stick by what i said, safety first, always, check your weapons, keep them clean, and always look at the fired cases, for signs of headspace failure.
if you buy a new to you Milsurps rifle or pistol, always check its safe function, headspace , if not by yourself, by someone with the experiance to do so, before firing the weapon.
another one of those ...lets argue for the sake of agruing is starting to well up..
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Banned
military to this day still proof checks their small arms using oiled proof pressure test cartridges to put maximum pressure and strain on the action and bolt.
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