No4Mk1(T) for sale over on CGN

[Badger]

Wow speaking of high prices for (T)s check out the recent auction results from Rock Island Auctions for items 1652, $11500.00US and 3327, w/o case $6700US.
Been cruising this site for a while and thought I would join. It's a great site with good information.
Foxbrook

Welcome ....

Actually, Lot 3327 says $6,900 U.S. in the final prices realized sheets they sent me.

Reference Thread - Rock Island Auctions (Sept. 10, 11 & 12, 2010)

Regards,
Badger

[Foxbrook]

Welcome ....

Actually, Lot 3327 says $6,900 U.S. in the final prices realized sheets they sent me.

Reference Thread - Rock Island Auctions (Sept. 10, 11 & 12, 2010)

Regards,
Badger

Yes that is what I had too, I have made the change in my post.
Foxbrook

[viking guy]

S 51 spacing incorrect, buttstock "Flat" definitely not factory, circle punch marks odd. Lack of front site ears already mentioned. I'd pass.

[Foxbrook]

The photos that see show the front sight protector and magazine. Must have been taken off to show the markings on the barrel.



I also see that it has sold.
Foxbrook

[Terry Hawker]

No4MkIT, Lance and the rest of you gents,

Suppose it doesn't matter now, as it has sold, but thought I would render my two cents worth.

First off, I have to agree with Lance that the markings do look legit. Not that I claim to have the expertise of some of you folks, but, I simply base my opinion, (and that's all it is), on observation of other specimens.

Primarily addressing the issue of fore-end number stamps within a circle, I know Peter has serious doubts about their authenticity, as we have discussed this after I was given a 4 (T) from a departed friend's estate. This rifle, X 33742, also appears to have been stamped with the same type of stamp set with circled numbers, as the rifle that started this thread. Depending on the force of the hammer blow, the circles range from non-existent, to very faint, or quite prominent. Of my five 4 (T)'s, naturally the ex-Trials and Longbranch are marked differently, but, two out of the three BSA's are marked with the same type stamps, the other being serial number M 36933. I have also seen photos of other rifles so marked, the first that comes to mind is on page 45 of David Gordon's, "Weapons of the WWII Tommy". If these aren't legitimate markings, the perpetrator must have been very busy and turned out quite a few of them. It is a bit odd though, that the rest of the rifle is correct. The fact that this occurs, in my case anyway, on two un-issued rifles, casts serious doubt on "the fore-end has been changed" argument.

Dinner is almost ready, so I won't get into the other areas that prove to me this rifle is probably authentic, but, for the interest of those of us with relatively small collections, could you folks with the larger treasure houses please look closely at your fore-end numbers and let us know how many you find with circled, (faintly or otherwise), numbers?

Thanks for your help,

Terry

[Surpmil]

My first Lee Enfield was a No4 MkI(T) dated 1944, N322-- serial number. It was unissued but was a "T LESS TELESCOPE" rifle. It had the same "number in a circle" stamps on the forend.

AFAIK, just a cylindrical stamp struck hard so that the shoulder of the stamp made an impression when the projecting number was driven that far into the wood.

I forget what I've read in Peter's books now. Was this done at manufacture or later?

[No4Mk1(T)]

The photos that see show the front sight protector and magazine. Must have been taken off to show the markings on the barrel.
I also see that it has sold.
Foxbrook

The front sight protector and magazine were missing when the seller originally posted the rifle for sale. Another Milsurps member sold the needed parts to the seller to complete the rifle.
I'd like to know how much it sold for.

No4MkIT, Lance and the rest of you gents,

Suppose it doesn't matter now, as it has sold, but thought I would render my two cents worth.

First off, I have to agree with Lance that the markings do look legit. Not that I claim to have the expertise of some of you folks, but, I simply base my opinion, (and that's all it is), on observation of other specimens.

Terry

Thanks for your observations Terry. It's never to late to add to the knowledge base. My original thought was that this might have been a restoration of a sporterized rifle. This belief was further reinforced when I found out the magazine and front sight protector were missing.
As mentioned earlier I unfortunately also haven't seen as many No4T as I would like. In most cases if I want to see another example I have to buy it (not easy on my budget). Thanks every one for your input so far and my continued education. One of the things I like about this sight is the free exchange of information. If anyone has more to add please keep the information coming.

[Peter Laidler]

The numbers-in-a-circle stamps are a new innovation so far as I am aware and while they are available in the Armourers/ordnance system now, it's only in the past few years. Up until then, it was all imperial sizes in the old 'direct' format. The fore-ends were always (?) stamped with the rifle number ONCE THEY GOT INTO SERVICE and not at the factory. If that were the case and they were stamped/marked at the factory, there'd be no need for H&H to write the number in in pencil during the conversion phase would there?

They'd be marked on issue from Ord or when they got to the unit although I understand that Fazakerley new production was always (? once again.....) numbered. It was done because the properly fitted fore-end was an important/crucial part of the acuracy of the rifle.

During the very early part of our apprenticeships, the class instructor would get us all to strip an old well used No4 rifles (and later, No8's and L1A1's) to the last little part (yes, including the backsights), throw every part from every rifle into a pile on the floor and we'd have to fit up the rifle, accuracy and range test it. That meant refitting bolts and fore-ends, patching where necessary until it was perfect. Then we'd re-number the bolt and fore-end. We did this namy times and you couldn't proceed to the next bit until you'd done the last bit correctly. Talk about being soul destroying.............. time after time. I mean, how many butts can you patch, forends and bolts fit and backsights assemble?