Inglis 7.92mm Bren

[MGMike]

Kevin: I may not have been entirely correct in stating that the guns "came into" the US in 1963-65. ATF Forms 2, which evidenced "receipt or importation" of an NFA weapon, were filed on these guns during that period. The guns might have been imported then (the obvious guess is from Canada) or they might already have been here in the US, but in the possession of someone who was not legally required to register them. I do not have ready access at this moment to the Forms 2, so I am unable to determine who or where the transferor was. The transferee was Interarms in Alexandria, Virginia. Extrinsic circumstances of the acquisition and disposition of these Brens strongly suggest the involvement of an agency of the U.S. government. Time permitting, I might be able in the future to examine the relevant Form 2s and elaborate.

M

[Warren]

Mike: Welcome aboard and your "inside knowledge" of firearms and the industry as a whole will be most welcome. Hope all is well down south of the Mason/Dickson line and I'll drop you a private email later.
Ref: the 7.92 Brens in Canada. A large number were found in Canada around the 65-70 period that had not been shipped to China. The estimate ran from around 50 to 200 units. Their disposition is still under debate and unfortunately the people who were present and saw them are no longer with us. I did not see them but was told by more than one person who was present of the cache and was invited to see them but just never made it. I keep getting told we have to write this stuff down but where do you start...
Also on an aside, MOST of the 7.92 Brens that were in the 65-70 cache had bright polished barrel nuts for some reason. I've had the opportunity to see probably half a dozen and all were the same (from memory).
Cheers,
Warren

[Peter Laidler]

Warren, I don't wish to sound a bit of a meanie, but really, this so called Canadian hoard sounds like a bit of an urban myth with all those missing variables. 50 to 200 guns, nobody knows ecattle where they were, all the people now passed on... ALL of them passed on......., from 1970? I'm as interested as the next man, or even MORE so as I have a vested interest too having just spent 8 years writing the book, trawled the world, got HUGE batches of numbers serial numbers, by year and mark type and even in many cases, serial numbers within a few of each other, crossing years etc etc. I 'think' that I have got JI production down to the most accurate-ish figure that we'll ever get to, taken mathematically over all of the figures and that includes the UK MoS figures for the 7.92 as well.

And don't forget, we had several thousands too, that were eventually broken up for breech blocks, extractors and locking shoulders for our first Ex and L4 guns

It's just so frustrating, having passed the deadline when this 'information' comes to light. Herb Woodend was a master at it................

[MGMike]

Everyone can believe what he likes, but the 26 guns are not mythical. The first ones were Form 2d in the US on 16 December 1963, the guns and their spares and their factory packaging (some of the guns were new in the wrap) were conspicuously devoid of manufacturer's identification or even proof marks, and the existence of 7.92 "Canadian" ammunition of similarly unattributable pedigree is commonly known (I still have several cases of it).

The serial numbers ranged as I described earlier. I am (or was, as many are deceased) acquainted with at least eight individuals who acquired one or more such guns directly from Interarms; their identities are nobody here today's business. Several other guns from this batch were, for unknown reasons, transferred to an obscure company called American Firearms & Ammunition Corp. located in Long Island City, NY. AFAC was a CIA "dummy" whose cover was blown a few years later (see George Thayer, The Arms Business, Simon & Schuster, New York, 1969). What Thayer did not discover was that AFAC had been involved in the movement through Interarms of literally hundreds-- if not thousands-- of Brens, both .303 and 7.92mmm beginning about 1957. Another of the 26 Brens recorded was sent in 1963 to a company in Connecticut known to have performed specialized machine shop work for "dark side" government projects. It was said later (I have no documentation for this) that some of the spare barrels were intended to be converted to another caliber; ultimately another engineering firm, located in Alexandria, Virginia (I know the company), got this contract. It also was said that this project was unsuccessful and that some of the barrels were ruined before it was terminated. Twenty years later, a crate of 7.92mm Bren barrels (separated from their parents) turned up for sale in Alexandria. I was not able to personally examine any of these, but they were purchased as a lot by a dealer in Texas.

To me this all leads inescapably to a conclusion about the intended employment of these guns. Others may feel more proof is needed.

M

[Warren]

Peter:
Don't mean to rain on your parade as well, but the guns did exist and their location was sound. Too many people saw them and it did cause a bit of a furor within the Canadian government. I was invited to view them but my travel schedule made it impossible at the time. I have NO reason to doubt the principles in this story as several were WW II and Korean vets who knew apple sauce from baby poop. I did try to find out what happened to them but the only thing I did find, at a later date, was the tooling. A HUGE warehouse of tooling for most of the WW II Canadian production of small arms and in fact I did remove some of the envelopes with the inventory of the case content. Those I have here somewhere. I believe if memory serves me right, the packing manifest I have is for the Hi-Power.
Urban myth ????...anyone is entitled to believe what they like.
Mike: the time period is actually quite coincidental.....

[Peter Laidler]

Slightly away from the subject a bit first, I appreciate that there's a bit of a mystery surrounding the post war activity of these 7.92mm Brens but very basically, they were all made under the sanction of the Ministry of Supply whose figures we also have, including the 7.92 totals 'returned' to the UK (Quite where they got the 'returned' bit from is a bit of a mystery or just a mistake as they never went from the UK in the first place but there you go!). I know that it is MUCH more complicated than that but....... The actual production of the 7.92's is all pretty well sewn up to within a few hundred or so with some unfathomable overlaps in batches BUT matematically, they all pretty well mate up to within a few hundred including those sent off here there and everywhere for tests and whatever...... It is on that basis that I will maintain that the unnumbered guns, or those with the 2-8xxx type numbers won't be an 'extra' 2-8000 (or 2,8000) guns although they might well be extra NUMBERS.

I'm afraid that ex Korea vets and WW2 vets can be horribly mistaken during the passage of time. Just see how many tell you some of these sheer fairy stories about Sten guns............. And that is to my experience too, relating to the 7.92mm guns! Because as I have said before and mention in the bowels of the book, we had some of these guns captured from our VC pals in D-445 during 4 RAR's time in about '67 (correct me if I'm wrong about 4 RAR, but the guns came from them.....) and they came down to the Brigade HQ, the Intelligence cells and back to Australia and the Training cell/wing in Malaya where the old and bold, ex wartime/Korea etc etc chaps (and even one of the old 8 RAR CSM's who was ex Africa Corps.....) examined them, wrote up about them and had them listed as, well, anything........... including German! But it was the NZers at the Intelligence cell in xxxxxxx who twigged that the strange calibre and configuration INGLIS Brens were Canadian 7.92's because some had the markings ground off or covered and NZ had Inglis Brens in service (Aust had Lithgow...) and the arrow-in-a-C was the Canadian mark. After that there was no mystery but I have to admit that I didn't know about them. It was me that deciphered the arrow-in-a-c logo after someone suggested that it was ROF Cardiff!

It just seems to me that talk of hidden extra guns........... and this is only my own very personal opinion, based on nothing more that getting up this morning, won't be 'extra' guns, as in lunch box or 'unaccounted for' but they'll be production guns. That's IF they exist/existed at all given the variables, uncertainties and depth of knowledge of these 'vets' who probably in all certainly, never saw a 7.92mm Bren. No real Armourer that I have EVER spoken to in over 40+ years or so of Armouring, here and the East, where they were destined to go, has ever seen one in service - except for those captured examples over there of course. Not even a parts list exists

I don't disbelieve about the packaging Warren, the Fazakerley No4 plant and machinery was stored 15 miles from here for over 30 years

[Peter Laidler]

Re the two dissimilar piston extensions that we've discussed before. According to a list, as opposed to a parts list, that I had that detailed the parts that differed between the Inglis 7.92mm gun and the bog standard Mk2, the piston extension didn't feature in it. This list was used to formulate the parts that could be utilised/salvaged from the UK's stocks of 7.92's that were here that could be used for the Ex and L4 programme. As I said, it didn't mention the piston extension or piston.

If I had to think out aloud, I'd be saying that a) we can't see it in full length (I tell that to all the girls........), b) if that was from a Bren, then the piston would have to be different and c) we'd need to test its mechanical fit in a gun body and ideally fire it on our range....., subject to it passing the safety criteria. The next thing would be to mike it up. A metallurgy analysis would be a good start. But I think that it's from a ..........., er......, something else! But NOT a GPMG!

[MGMike]

I venture no opinion about whether these sterile guns can be accounted for within the known numbering schemes and grand totals of production. I don't think it really matters. My point is only that at least a couple thousand (maybe more) 7.92mm Brens were deliberately completed sans markings. A few later surfaced in circumstances clearly suggesting that they had been procured for clandestine purposes in the 1950s or 60s.

Incidentally, I did locate the Form 2s for almost all of the 26 Brens described earlier. As I suspected -- but wanted to confirm-- they all came from American Firearms & Ammunition Corp., i.e, not originally imported by Interarms. Significantly, they were not transferred to Interarms on a Form 3, as one might expect from dealer to dealer; it was left to Interarms to register them on a Form 2. I doubt if there exists any earlier Form 2 filed by anyone. If I had to make an educated guess, I would say that these Brens probably were already in the USA and stored at the U.S. Army Quartermasters Depot at Cameron Station, on the outskirts of Alexandria, VA, about a mile from Interarms. A lot of such material back and forth was simply delivered by truck. Three of them, in fact, ultimately were returned (on paper) to AFAC and disappeared.

M

[Kev G]

Just to clarrify these particular 'bare' number prefix 7.92's have no numbers in the barrel nut pocket as per 'normal' Brens.



As has been said, all assemblies and parts that make up these guns have never had makers codes or names on them.

ATB Kevin

[Kev G]

Pic of CH/OT 7.92 breech block and bare number prefix serial number breech block ,both types are marked MK I* but different style number fonts.



Both types can be seen in Tom Dugelbys revised BGS page 279 . The bare breech block shown has been marked upside down in the same manner and font as above pic in BGS Attributed to Canadian Arsenal 7.62 trial conversion.

ATB Kevin