Developing short range loads for Mil Surps.

[Calfed]

My sons and I shoot in a vintage military rifle silhouette match every month. The match consists of 10 rounds each fired at chickens @ 220 yards, pigs @ 330 yards, turkeys @ 420 yards and rams @ 550 yards. We use a variety of different rifles to include K31's, Swedish Mausers, Swiss 1911 and 96/11 rifles, 09 Argentine Mausers and Finnish M39's.

Here is the problem-while all of these guns are superbly accurate, many of them have difficulty hitting targets at close range. By close, I mean less than 350-400 yards. Most of my rifles will shoot close to MOA with handloads. The problem comes when I have to shoot at chicken silhouettes @ 220 yards or even, in some cases, pigs @ 330 yards. Even with a "6 o'clock" hold, and the rear sight set at the lowest level, the bullets go right over the target.

Case in point-this last weekend I shot an Argentine Mauser at the match. I had developed a handload (40 grs. of 4064 with a .311 SMK) that shot close to MOA. 1909 Argentine Mauser range report However, I had to aim at least a foot below the chickens and at least 6 inches below the pigs in order to hit them at all and as a result ended up doing badly.

I've decided that I need to develop a "chicken load" for these guns and need a place to start. I'm thinking of loading a heavy, low ballistic coefficient bullet with a light powder charge to lower the point of impact at the silhouette. One possibility is a 30-30 style flat nose 170 grain bullet for the Swiss 1911 and a RN 180 grain .311 bullet for the Argy Mauser. Some of the match shooters suggested a light ball might be better.

Before I start buying bullets willy-nilly and loading them, I thought I would check on line and see if anyone else has already solved this problem or at least experimented with some "close range" loads. I know that another approach is to modify the front sight with a taller post, but would like to try the "close range ammo" route first.

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[Patrick Chadwick]

The effect you describe is very common with old service rifles. I have an 1891 Argentine Engineer's Carbine that is an extreme case. About the shortest Mauser you can get. The throat on this model is also very, very long (see Olson, Mauser Bolt Rifles, 3rd Edition, p. 55) with a smooth-bore section before the transition even starts. Looks like a "normal" rifle with a totally worn out throat. And the cute little backsight starts at 300 meters. This situation required 2 elements to get the shots grouping on the paper at 100 meters.
1) Use the heaviest bullet with the longest cylindrical section you can find. In this case, the Hornady 174 gn round-nose, type 3130, diameter 0.312. (Can also be a good solution for generously bored Lee Enfield .303s and 7.7mm Arisaka T99s).
2) Fit a higher foresight blade. I have Mausers from the very first, and longest (the M1871 BPCR) through the Argentine "Baby Mauser" mentioned above to just about the last - FN Israeli in 7.62mm. And one by one they have all ended up fitted with a 9mm blade as readily available for the K98s. And that type of blade fits them all - it seems that Mauser never changed the dovetail.

I appreciate that you are reluctant to fit a higher foresight blade, if you don't have to. Simply using the long heavy bullet and a fairly light load could be sufficient for 220 yards chickens. But probably not for target shooting at 100. And using a light bullet with a squib load could mean that there is insufficient impetus to knock down the chickens.

But for all rifles with an open backsight, there is another way.
One often reads (or sees diagrams) that the top of the foresight blade should be level with the top of the backsight (and centered in the V or U, of course).
It ain't necessarily so.
Go right back to the 19th century and the Enfield percussion rifles and you will discover that soldiers were trained to hold the blade well down in the sight for short distances. Do it the "level" way with a muzzle-loading Enfield or a Martini-Henry and you may hit the sight screens above the range, but not the target.

It takes quite some practice, but it is worth it - you will find that the centering of the blade is better. I think you will find that most of your rifles will be in the black at 100 if you take a 6 o'clock hold AND bury the blade until you can just still see the tip sharply. Group width will be very tight, group height will be somewhat erratic until you have gained some experience with this method.

Why not give it a try, and let us know if it works for you?

Patrick

[Calfed]

Thanks, Patrick. I actually did try the "buried front sight" method at the match on Saturday. It helped, but was not totally effective, even at 220 yards. The 09 Argentine Mauser was just flat shooting high. Even with the rear sight set at 300, I had to aim below the pigs to hit any of them and they are at 300 meters.

You mentioned that all Mausers use the same front sight dove tail dimension and that 9mm front sights are available. Liberty Tree Collectors is currently offering front sight blades for the '91 Argentine Mausers:

https://www.libertytreecollectors.co...&idcategory=38

They indicate that they will also fit the 09 Argentine Mausers. Is this the "9mm" front sight blade and could this be an alternate to the "close range" load? If that isn't what I need, can you suggest a source for a front sight tall enough to correct my problem?

Thanks for you assistance, Steve

[smellie]

I hesitate to suggest this, just in case people think I'm completely gone, but what about the C.E. Harris UNIVERSAL load for midsize rifles? It gets 2 MOA or under out to a couple hundred yards and it's absolutely dirt-cheap to run: 537 shots out of a tin of powder and it is specifically aimed at cast bullets.

The load is very simple: 13 grains of Red Dot and whatever cast bullet somewhere around 180 grains you happen to have lying about. This tends to come out somewhere around 1800 ft/sec but, of course, this varies from rifle to rifle, cartridge to cartridge. I am using something very similar with a 160 cast GC bullet in a Number 4 and it's fun. It's also cheap, which is my main reason for usng it. You can shoot with or without a gas-check, being that the bullet doesn't REALLY need one at this velocity and, if obturation is a factor (all those worn-out barrels in my safe) then a kick on the gas-check can help a lot.

Another possibility is shooting cast slugs with SR-4759, which is very bulky and works extremely well in loads which are lighter than you can get away with when using more progressive powders. This one is also a specific for smokeless-for-Black loads in old rifles, loading at 38%-of-Black-by-weight to give you Black powder performance AND pressures.

Should have mentioned. My range buddy of many years passed away this Spring. Last year we knew he was weakening but he bought another rifle anyway: pre-' Model 70 in .300 Weatherby. He didn't want the heavy recoil because of his weakening heart, so we spent the whole summer shooting a .300 Weatherby which was actually turning out loads that were at the bottom of the .30-30 scale. Secret was SR-4759, of course. I believe the new Sierra manual has loads for most cartridges with this powder. Very mild but very darned accurate, too.

Hope this helps.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Calfed, I just checked on my Brazil Mauser.
The foresight is marked 10 on the side, but actually rises about 8 mm above the dovetail. So check how the supplier measures the foresight before you buy anything. It sounds like your Argentine needs all of that 8mm. The ones on the link you provided look like standard foresights, and there is nothing specifically Argentine 1891 about them. One sort fits all Mausers from the M1871 through to the FN Israeli K98 (apart from the Carl Gustafs, which use a blade). And don't forget that old workshop insight - if it's too high, you can file it down, but if it's too low, it's difficult to file it up! You need a foresight that gets you off the bottom of the backsght scale, so that you have room for adjustment.

Frankonia has the triangular type for K98s etc as a stock item in various heights. Sportarms has the blade type for Swedish Mausers. But both of these suppliers are in Germany. There ought to be a source a few thousand miles closer to you!

Patrick