A very long shot - No1MkIII S#16229

[Surpmil]

I have no wish to hijack this posting but I want to be very clear to everyone.

The Waffen SS were elite German troops and they fought out of patriotism and love of country, just as the elite troops of the Allies did. All sides in war are involved in atrocities and the difference is the winner gets to rewrite history.

In the fire bombing of the German city of Dresden it is estimated that the "Allies" killed over 250,000 German civilians in four days of bombing.

"It sickens me when people call the SS "elite troops"..."

The British and American Airmen who flew the bombers over Dresden were elite troops, the "real" difference in the word "elite" was we won the war and the Germans didn't.

In the war I served in we killed over 1 million South Vietnamese civilians defending them against "Communist aggression" and 60,000 Americans lost their lives in a war we lost....................

We also rewrote history and banned the import of Australian designed A1A Enfield Rifles because they "may" have been made in Viet Nam by "capitalist" trying to make money.

Also the "elite" American Air Force C-141 aircraft I worked on could carry 176 coffins at one time stacked 4 across and 4 high on 11 cargo pallets.

In war there are no real winners................and you use a fire hose to clean up the blood on the aircraft floor.

It certainly makes things easier if we just pretend that everyone is the same, all wars are the same, everyone is a "patriot fighting for his country", etc. etc.. "I won't blame you, if you don't blame me" is what it boils down to. Good for people with guilty consciences I suppose.

Yes, it's much easier than actually studying the historical record. History written by the victors? Depends which victors you mean. When you fight the Anglo-Saxon powers you get to write your own history later. When you lose to some others you don't even know you have a history.

The SS were tough fighters, but then so were the VC, and yet I don't hear of many Americans dressing up in black pajamas and sporting AKs at re-enacting events. Black is such a "cool" colour for the Walter Mitty's so I'm really not sure why...it must something other than miltary couture though, as re-enacting is a serious business I'm sure.

The SS were recruited in large part from the material - I was going to say social trash - that the Army did not want: ex-German communists from the Sturm Abteilung, ex-criminals etc. There was a strong undercurrent of contempt for the SS in the German Army proper; well justified, but as events were to prove, somewhat hyprocritical in view of the widespread atrocities committed by regular German army units in WWII.

The SS graduated from Kristallnacht and Dachau to machine gunning more than 80 British prisoners in 1940 at Wormhoudt and they went on from there, as even the most casual student of history should know. After Kurt Meyer and his little thugs killed a quantity of Canadian POWs in 1944, our troops got something of a reputation for shooting SS as a matter of policy. Perhaps that's why the Germans called the Canadians "Tommy SS"

I'm afraid attacking neighboring countries and killing millions of civilians in cold blood is not the action of those who fight "out of patriotism and love of country". It is action of callous thugs who despise all who are not like themselves.

As for Dresden, or any other such case, the Germans sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind, as AM Harris so eloquently put it. As you would know of course Ed, it was the Germans who began the practice of dropping bombs on cities in 1915 with their Zeppelin attacks on London - and on a Canadian field hospital in France as it happens.

So I've got your opinion as clearly as you stated it, but don't confuse it with the historical facts to which it bears no resemblence in this case.

As for Walter Mittys in SS uniforms, may they all meet the fate of the two at the LA gunshow some decades ago who happened to meet a couple of Israeli "specials" in the men's washrooms...I do believe their fancy unforms may have got a little crumpled.

[Frederick303]

Interesting note on atrocities and how we perceive them:

My great Grandmother on my father's side was in the Loire valley (France) during WWII. In the summer of 1944, the US Air force was attempting to stop the Germans supply lines in France and had a policy of strafing any and all movement on the roads during the day. Many a French peasant and his horses were killed by these actions. My great grandmother hated the "Jabo"s and the fliers who flew them till she died (she came over to the US post war and died here).

Now according to my father, any US flyer that was shot down in the Loire valley during this time would have been killed by the French they were trying to liberate, because of these random strafing runs that killed French peasants. I did not really pay much attention to the details, but I seem to recall that he said any US flier that was shot down with some common sense would make a beeline for the Germans troops, as they were safe as prisoners of war.

When I was older and reading a bit more about the war I sort of doubted the above, as the official histories contain no information on this. I did run across some stills from US thunderbolt (P-47) gun cameras from the summer of 1944 which clearly show farm type wagons being shot up. I also read that the US flyers did make a beeline for the German troops in Germany, as the civilians would kill any bomber crews that happened along. A number of German civilians were tried for murder post war, when the US could prove they had killed US fliers, so it is not inconceivable that a similar sort of activity occurred in France during the summer of 1944. One can understand the feelings of the civilians, if we today in the US were being randomly killed by Canadian pilots I doubt that any crashed crews would have a very long life expectancy.

I do think Ed is right to some extent, I think those acts that we would look at as war crimes that were done by the allies tend to be overlooked, while those of the enemy are more likely to be published. The Germans did a similar strafing policy during the invasion of France in 1940 and those acts are widely published and considered crimes. I knew a US crew man of a B 24 that was involved in bombing jap shipping in the pacific and he commented after they sank jap ships they would go back and strafe the survivors, which would be considered a war crime if it was done the allies.

That said, the German Waffen SS did have a higher than expected number of atrocities committed by members of that organization. There is nothing close to the crime of the holocaust on the US/British side (though the civilian bombing raids do seem pretty bad) Both the Germans and Japs were planning even worse crimes had they won the wars. The Germans and the Japs did start the war, not England and the US of A. While it is a shame that the allies were not absolutely pure, in general the US and Britain come out of the war looking pretty good, at least to any observer who considers the losses that both nations incurred in a war forced on those nations. In regards to civilian bombing, The British had been fire bombed by the Germans, to some extent Bomber Harris and his policy might have had a bit of pay back intended, wrong as that might be to an observer 65 years later.

I suppose overall I think it is a good exercise to attempt to accurately account for the atrocities on both sides, as long as such exercises do not confuse the fundamental fact that that the Germans under Hitler were the bad guys, and the British and Americans were the good guys. In so long as that fundamental fact is not obscured, brining up some of the regrettable actions of the allies and understanding how these actions came to pass is a good thing.

[bouletbill]

There were atrocities commited on all sides , but I think we should differentiate between individual orders or actions enacted by those who may have been brutalized or desensitized by war ... and the cold calculated state sanctioned evil that is the hallmark of most totalitarian regimes .

Returning to the thread ... has anyone among us , ever found buried equipment ?

[Amatikulu]

Interesting viewpoints.

However, this thread was about a search for a rifle lost during WW2 and has drifted way off topic.

Please continue your discussion about atrocities and elite troops in a new thread on the Watering Hole "off topic" forum.

[Fletch]

There were atrocities commited on all sides , but I think we should differentiate between individual orders or actions enacted by those who may have been brutalized or desensitized by war ... and the cold calculated state sanctioned evil that is the hallmark of most totalitarian regimes .

Returning to the thread ... has anyone among us , ever found buried equipment ?

Not equipment as such but artifacts and shell casings at various Anglo-Boer war battle fields.

[Brit plumber]

I've never found more than the normal detritus left behind on training areas but I'm astounded by the quality of some the items found buried on the beaches of Dunkirque. I have pics of Lee Enfield No.1 Mk3 rifles, a Boys AT rifle and a Bren on Tripod recovered from the Dunes and they are in a excellent state of preservation. Right down to the Crown on the Bren. They started off as Lumps of concretia but this must have protected the metal work well.

[Brit plumber]

[Peter Laidler]

Does anyone know how to chemically remove the concrete type crustation that forms on these things. What acid based chemical will do the job? That hammer and great chisel looks a bit, er.... fierce!

[RJW NZ]

wow ...that is one restoration job that should almost get a medal, wow wow!

[Peter Laidler]

I agree with you entirely RJW. BP, do you know the story of that Bren and is it the crusty one in the picture?

Someone found an old Webley .38" Mk4 pistol, in its holster, 6 feet down in an old wartime part of Salisbury Plain Training area about 8 years ago. Probaly lost by a young officer - or more likely, his batman............ I put it in the waste oil tank for a year or so and after the old crud had dropped off, much t my suprise, it worked, broke open, extracted and ejected. I put a pair of leather motorcyclists gauntlets on and fired it. I'll take my camera into work tomorrow and photograph it................................