PARKER HALE 5C aperture sights ......

[Peter Laidler]

Recently I went to my sons old school Cadet Force to sift through the old cupboards. In an old box, left over from their SMLE and No4 shooting days were a couple of assorted Parker Hale 5 C sights. One was a little strange because the inside of the base part was stepped and built up. I know that I have mentioned this feature on some of the sights before.

During the mid 60’s when I was attached to an Infantry regiment with a good shooting team, they regularly used the accurate No4T rifles for SRb competitions. The problem was that the usual Parker Hale sights could not be fitted due to the protruding rear sight bracket base. So they had ‘adapted’ P-H sights to accommodate this. This way, they could use their own, same rifle for several different competitions I knew that I wasn’t imagining things because there, before my very eyes, in the old box was just such a sight! A couple of the others are currently on that auction site

Pictured is the odd No4T sight plus for comparison a standard PH5c base alongside. I just KNOW that a forumer somewhere will know the answer to this

Does anyone collect these PH sights? Can they identify it as a home-made or does it feature in a catalogue? It certainly doesn’t look home made by any stretch of the imagination and looking carefully, it doesn’t even look fabricated although it COULD be of course. Would P-H make or adapt these sights for customers? And at what cost?

P-H5c base fitted to a No4T slave action
Attachment 16415 - Attachment 16416

The built up and standard sight bases from an underside angle
Attachment 16418

The rear side of the two bases. The built-up base has also been relieved extensively to clear the rear pad and this shows as the relief has broken into the lead screw hole.
Attachment 16417

The build up and relief again.
Attachment 16414

Just another question too. Each of the sights there has what appears to be a two or three figure 'serial number' stamped into the rear of the main body and arm. Is this a serial number or simply a machining/mating number

Thanks for any answers ......

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[rgg_7]

I have a small collection of Parker Hale sights and do repairs when I have the parts. The number stamped on the base and upper arm was an a matching or mating number. It is anywhere from a single digit to 3 digits and the same on each as these were hand assembled. Most often see just a double digit stamped.

The 5C that was used on the No4T has been modified most likely by a machinist/armourer. Your last picture shows the pocket (sized to clear the rear base) and I can see the milling marks. It's possible that Parker Hale did this for the boys however it would have to be confirmed.

I have seen 5A sights modified to the 5c configuration so anything is possible.

Peter....great info....thanks for posting.

Ron

[Gnr527]

Nothing like a personal plug.

I suspect one of the sets referred to by Peter is mine - going with with a spare base and arm. The spare base has been machined although not in the way shewn above and I dont have the fixing bracket that went with it - so dont know what it was fixed to.

In confirmation of the above all Parker Hale sights I have seen have been two digit numbered on base, arm and windage slide.

John

[Peter Laidler]

Thanks for that chaps but looking carefully at the 3rd, 4th and 5th picture (crap photography and camera permitting.....), you can see that as well as the base being a very slight recessed by about .020" or so, the front and rear screw hole areas have been 'spaced' outwards. This spacing together with the slight recessing has JUST allowed the base to sit square and true on the rifle but JUST clear the rear tele bracket pad. If it is fabricated, then you can't see the join - a bit like my wig! (just kidding....). I have just had another look and the sliding cursor on the top arm has been moved over to the right to cater for the fact that the base (and therefore the optical axis of the aperture) has been spaced over to the left. The vernier index plate securing screw on the top arm has also been repositioned so to position the index plate to match. It's the first time I have looked at one in any depth.

As a matter of interest and on the same subject, what's the difference between the P-H 5C and D as a couple in the box have the mark P-H5D overstamped with a C? A couple have squared top arms and others have dovetailed top arms

Ron, in this box of assorted sight bits there is a P-H 5A sight but it doesn't look like it can be modified to a 5c configuration - not without a foundry.

This is the first time I have really had a good look at these sights - certainly in any depth.

[rgg_7]

Peter,

The 5a sight was modified by milling off the mounting arm and a plate shaped to the 5c welded to the base. Very neatly done....no foundry required.

Parker Hale also modified 5a sights for Mauser. They milled off the arm, drilled and taped the back for a bracket. Believe these were also done for the Musgrave. Somewhere on the net is an article on this.

A 5d is for the British No8. It has a a different base configuration.

As far as the overstamped windage arms, the 5cd was meant for the aluminum base. Configured for the No4, it was done near the end of the product life cycle to cut cost. Not well received and generally the base got put aside by target shooters and replaced with a steel one. I've seen this on ocassion.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[rgg_7]

Peter,

On the PH 5c No4T sight (my reference), could you measure the plate thickness at the mounting holes. I'll measure a couple of the standard ones I have for comparison.

Also can you tell me what distance the windage scale plate mounting hole has been moved. I'm assuming that the original hole is there...it's just been repositioned. I've seen this done on other 5c's.

Ron

[Peter Laidler]

Thickness of the 'spacers' F and R = .180".
Thickness of the front mounting area = .314
Thickness of the rear mounting area = .309"
BUT the rear mating surfaces are flat, albeit the .005" difference. The difference must therefore be due to the outside surfaces not being level but this is academic anyway
Depth of the clearance recess in rear of base = .025"
Index plate screw hole moved to right approx .206". Which would make sense given that .180" + .025" = .205"!

For comparison, of the others, the average thickness of the bases at the mounting areas is rear .133.5 and front .132.5 (taken from 7)

Looking at the remainder there are other differences too. For example, those with a rear position quick release (Q-R) top-arm button in the base require that the body be drilled and tapped before the sight can be secured to it. This is catered for in the No8 rifle EMER I seem to remember.
While those with the front position top arm Q-R button utilise the existing ejector screw and backsight axis pin holes.

But that's not all........... Some of the front Q-R plunger types have a simple vernier scale while others have a dual range AND vernier scale. My head hurts already!

[rgg_7]

Peter,

I measured 10 PH 5c sights. There is a diffrence between the front and rear of .001". Perhaps to take up differences in the receivers as I've work on a few sights that have been "fitted"....didn't keep the info however there was material filed from both mounting loactions in order to fit the sight. Makes sense as all No4's are identical in tolerance. I get similar measures to you. Front .1330" and rear .1320".

Ron

[Mk VII]

The 5D arm is shorter and has less windage adjustment (because with a .22 you're never going to need it) - 20 minutes each side of zero, IIRC. The PH5CD was sold with this arm as a fit for those No.8s which had the (non-functional) ejector screw of the .303 body (and not all 8's had it). As indicated above, it probably cut their costs to use a base of standard design instead of the special-to-type 5D base.

[Peter Laidler]

From Mk7's observations, the sights owned by RGG and the 7 or so I've got here to clean up and make good, it seems as though there are many, many variations. I'll tell you this, Parker Hale were not big on standardising thread form or sizes. The elevation lead screws seem to be coarse and fine, 5, 6 and 10 clicks per revolution........... It must be a nightmare to keep an old sight on the road given what we've got between us here. Please let us know what your observations are. Between you, me and Badger, I feel that there could be a rather large book on just these P-H 5 sights alone! Anyone got any of the 3/32 balls?

Incidemtally, I also found a load of P-H 7A's too. Any ideas where these will have come from? It could be a good thread...........