Enfield Made MkII’s?

[Peter Laidler]

The 2,300 were the Bren guns in the UK Ordnance system available if the Germans invaded. I suppose some, but very few, were abroad. We know Bren A8 went to Australia............ There weren't that many Lewis guns left here either because a lot of them were sent to France to augment the Brens that weren't faring too well mechanically!

[Kev G]

Thanks Peter.
I have seen the 2,300 figure for Brens remaining after Dunkirk quoted in the BGS by Dugelby and Major Hobart in Small Arms Profile 13 also cites this figure from 'International Armament' - Johnson & Lockhoven.
Any idea how the figure of 2,300 is worked out ?
The Minstry of Supply figures (I can only comment on the ones I have seen) give a very much larger figure ?
Or is there various Ministry or Army Departments giving different stock holdings for there own purposes ?

ATB Kevin

[Peter Laidler]

The 2,300 figure was given for the census of warlike stores available for the defence of Britain, expected in September 1940. It was compiled in August. It was presumably requested from the War Cabinet to the Director of Ordnance who sent a PDFQ memo to all concerned, asking what Ordnance stocks they had in hand.

To be brutally honest KG, I don't know how they did it then but I suppose someone in the Cabinet was told in no uncertain terms by someone slightly higher up the War Cabinet food chain
'......... we're going to be invaded quite soon old boy and weaponry is at a premium if you get my drift me old chum, especially after those tossers left most of their kit in France! Now be a good chap, just dash off and find out what kit we have got left scattered around in the various units and Ordnance depots in case the Boche come. And don't forget to count the Pikes as well. There's no immediate rush but before they invade would be helpfull.......... On second thoughts, make it PDQ or even PDFQ as I've got to present it to the PM tomorrow tea time. And if Its late, I'll get me ear tweaked. And if I get my ear tweaked because of your slackness old boy, you'll get your b------s kicked'Anyway, that's how it would be worded nowadays by the Divisional Commander to the Brigade Commander and so on down the food chain until it got to me at EME level.

Re your last q. Something of this importance isn't like fiddling your ration stocks or ammunition returns or write-off value account returns so there would be no different depts or units hiding their holdings................, deary me no!

Anyway KG, that's all I know but since the request (presumably, due to it's importance) came from the War Cabinet, it'll be somewhere for all to see. That's the figure I got from the Govt. Library Service when I enquired about something similar for an Army project*

* that was about 2 pounders and we only had 81 or so of them left here. Good job they didn't invade. Or better still that they didn't bring any tanks!

[peregrinvs]

Barrels first. Couldn't someone who simply wants a Daimler the 'looks right' simply machine the locating lug off an Inglis and be done with it?

Deary me no. That would be cheating.

[peregrinvs]

This is why (From one of my previous posts) the price of Brens & deacts in general is rising fast! Demand outstripping supply!

An unscientific survey of the stuff Ryton Arms and World Wide Arms currently have for sale suggest only Soviet / Eastern Bloc / Chinese stuff seems to be coming onto the market in significant quantities. E.g. There seems to be no shortage of factory fresh Chinese AK-47's for sale - albeit butchered new-spec ones.

I keep wondering what India has in reserve and whether they are likely to sell it? Am I right in thinking most of the SMLEs - or the spares they were made from - that have appeared on the UK deact market in recent years came from India?

Mark

[Brit plumber]

I was watching the Edinbourgh Tatto this morning (I Sky+ it a while back) and the Jordanian Drill team were displaying with Lee Enfield No1 Mk3s. They had very short cut down 1907 bayonet fitted.

[tankhunter]

[QUOTE=peregrinvs;143150]An unscientific survey of the stuff Ryton Arms and World Wide Arms currently have for sale suggest only Soviet / Eastern Bloc / Chinese stuff seems to be coming onto the market in significant quantities. E.g. There seems to be no shortage of factory fresh Chinese AK-47's for sale - albeit butchered new-spec ones.

I keep wondering what India has in reserve and whether they are likely to sell it? Am I right in thinking most of the SMLEs - or the spares they were made from - that have appeared on the UK deact market in recent years came from India?

Ryton have a Huge reserve stock of what is being advertised in Gunmart. This is what is left after Tony Budge Died recently. I belive the only new stuff (More Thompsons ETC) that they MAY offer in future will be from Containers that were dispatched & on thier way prior to Tonys demise. The reason that AKs & WWII Soviet stuff is readily available on the market is. Their are far less collectors of that field of equipment about that British Or American stuff. to that End, a vast amount remains unsold (& POSSIBLY unwanted!) Look at the fact they have no more (& dont expect any more) M1A1 Thompsons left. All that remains are the left over 1928's that no one wants. I think his Wife just wants to get rid of what remains where possible & sell the bussiness, or what would remain of it. As posted previously, see the rise in Price of M1A1 Thompsons & Brens as demand is outstripping supply!
A heck of a lot of SMLE's & associated spares came onto the market a few years ago. But these originated form Austrialia & South African reserve stock. Even these have dried up now!

[Kev G]

Peter thanks for reply and insight into the workings of account returns.
The MoS figures I have on record - The National Archives | The Catalogue | Full Details | AVIA 22/504
for the Army stock of Bren guns on June 7th 1940 is 14,023 . This seems to be a very large descrepancy especially if the 2,300 figure was compiled in August as June's deliveries alone are given at over 3,400 Brens with 476 undergoing inspection ?

Something is not right somewhere
Any suggestions as to what is going on ?

ATB Kevin

[Peter Laidler]

I can't comment on the minutae KG but surely, on paper, the Army probably DID have 14,000 Brens. But by the time they got back from their hols in France after 7th June or so, they'd left a lot of 'em behind. I understand also that the large Ordnance stockpiles of weapons and anti-tank guns that were at the Base Ordnance Depot in Lille(?) that were quietly moved South to Le Havre to avoid upsetting the French weren't moved quietly or secretly enough as the ship bringing them home, the Lancastria was, without putting too fine a point on it, all but ambushed

Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger. But the figure I got from the ALS in Aldershot that relate to the 8/40 census of warlike stores was the 2,300 figure. It does seem rather odd that I got this figure as did those others get the same/similar figure-ish in their articles

[phoenix44]

Just a point to note, the Lancastria was sunk off St Nazaire on the 17th June 1940.